The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer

[Lorraine Psilocybe Tribe]

I recently updated my mixer from a Pioneer djm500 I bought of e-bay years ago to a brand spanking new Allen & Heath xone 42 & Ive been puzzled & concerned about the way & why its changed/coloured my sound........this explains it wonderfully......thankyou so much guys

[karcevgo]

Hi, everyone. Need help with choosing mixer for vinyl djing. It's a hard choice between analogue A&H-42 and digital Pioneer DJM-750, which is about to come in july 2013. Can't listen to any of them to choose. Now mixing with Pioneer DJM-350, which sounds too weak in my opinion.

[karcevgo]

Hi, everyone. Need help with choosing mixer for vinyl djing. It's a hard choice between analogue A&H-42 and digital Pioneer DJM-750, which is about to come in july 2013. Can't listen to any of them to choose. Now mixing with Pioneer DJM-350, which sounds too weak in my opinion.

[M.Beijer]

IMHO I dont like the crossover points for the EQ on Pioneer mixers. But I didn't know why until now.

I know each mixer manufacturer is known to have a slightly different "color" based on the individual components used, and how they are manufactured.

But I really thought there was more too it than that.

With a look at where different manufacturers set their frequency points for the channel 3 band EQ, a lot of very interesting things can be learned.



Pioneer sets the low knob to everything 70hz and below.

Then the high knob to everything 13000hz and above.

Meaning the mid band knob has everything from 70hz to 13000hz!


That leaves it with very little room for sonic manipulation of any music through EQing.


Whereas an Allen & Heath runs the 3 band EQ in the Xone:42 like:


Low: 420hz and down
Mid: Center point at 1200hz
High: 2700hz and up

This gives you a VERY warm low band, as well as giving you MUCH greater manipulation ability of the high band.

Allen & Heath's Xone:92 with its 4 band eq is run thus:

Low: 100hz and down
low-mid: center point at 250 hz
high-mid: center point at 2500hz
High: 10000hz and up


^Now THAT is a sexy set of frequencies.

What this all means is, in a pioneer when you boost the lows, you don't boost ANY of the mids. So as a result the music becomes muddy, and lacks warmth. In order to compensate for this you would normally boost the mids a small amount with the lows, to retain the warmth. BUT Pioneer has to much high range on the mid (13khz and down!) so boosting the mids adds the warmth from the mid range just as equally as it adds the dry tinny highs, so in effect it cancels itself out, and instead of sounding warmer, it just sounds like you turned up the volume.


So how do I know all this? Well I have played quite a bit at live shows on pioneer's and A&H's, but I don't own either of them.

I own a DDM4000 for my practice setup, and it allows 100% customization of all frequency points in its 3 band channel EQ!

WIN!

So, I took a manual from a Pioneer DJM800, and plugged those frequencies into my DDM4000, and coming from someone who is VERY familiar with how Pioneers EQ feels (and from someone who thought his DDM4000 sounded "better" than a DJM800) it was very weird to have my DDM4000 feeling EXACTLY like the pioneer in terms of EQ. It was creepy.

I then plugged in the A&H frequency point, and it was INSTANTLY clear why A&H mixers are considered "warmer" than pioneer.


They all have a slightly different "color" .. or "tone" with the EQ knobs centered, this is definitely the case. But as soon as you put +1db on all three knobs evenly, that is where, based on the frequencies they are set at, the EQ's will really begin to change the "color" of the sound.

Where those frequencies are set has a huge effect on this "coloring".

And as no DJ plays an entire set with ought moving any of the EQ knobs from dead center, the "color" a certain mixers EQ's are going to add to a sound become apparent throughout a mix.

Its that simple.


I hope there is at least someone out there that has a constructive argument to this, because although I really feel this is the main contributer to the "color" a certain mixer has compared to another one (that is if all mixers were created equal in terms of noise isolation, and proper circuitry), I would love to hear why I could be mistaken somewhere along the way.


Here I'm going to be listing different mixers, as well as my custom frequency setting for the channel EQ's.

Check back as Ill be updating it.

3 Band EQ's:

All DJM low: 70hz
Evo4 low: 200hz
X:42 low: 420hz
X4D low: 120hz
All Rane low: 300hz
DDM low: 330hz
My low: 180/200hz

All DJM mid: 1000hz
Evo4 mid: 1200hz
X:42 mid: 1200hz
X4D mid: 1400hz
All Rane mid: 1200hz
DDM mid: 1400hz
my mid: 1200hz

All DJM high: 13000hz
Evo4 high: 6500hz
X:42 high: 2700hz
X4D high: 10000hz
All Rane high: 4000hz
DDM high: 4200hz
my high: 5000hz



4 Band EQ's:

X:92 low: 100hz

X:92 low-mid: 250hz

X:92 high-mid: 2500hz

X:92 high: 10000hz


To add, Mixers that have fully Adjustable frequency points for EQ:

DDM4000
Ecler Evo 5

And Mixers I cant find info for:

Ecler Nuo series
Traktor default
Serato Itch

What colors the a&h mixers sound to the warmer sound is the Pre amp and phono amp in the mixer. However you can for sure "tailor" the sound to more what you like it like with the EQs.
So what you said in the beginning is whats the truth and nothing else but the truth;
components and way of building is what makes a a&h mixer sound different to a pioneer, ecler or behringer.

[Stinn77nnie]

That leaves it with very little room for sonic manipulation of any music through EQing.

[0Notice]

interesting post! Now if there was a way to make the filters sound good too!

[SlvrDragon50]

interesting post! Now if there was a way to make the filters sound good too!

Internal traktor filters are sooooo awful. Only reason why I want to go external. I miss my A&H filter.

[0Notice]

Internal traktor filters are sooooo awful. Only reason why I want to go external. I miss my A&H filter.

Agreed. This is why I want a 92. That and 6 Channels.

[mdcdesign]

Internal traktor filters are sooooo awful. Only reason why I want to go external. I miss my A&H filter.

There's multiple settings for the filter algorithim in Traktor; play with the settings till you find something you like.

Personally I use Z-ISO and Ladder.

[Shishdisma]

There's multiple settings for the filter algorithim in Traktor; play with the settings till you find something you like.

Personally I use Z-ISO and Ladder.

Seeing that the Ladder setting actually considers itself an emulation of a Ladder filter, you can see why people have serious complaints about the sound of Traktor's filters.