Frustrations with the market of current controllers: Need Vestax and Traktor to help!

[blur]

Frustrations
As it stands now, and from what I'm hearing and reading, controllers are being looked at by the established professional DJ world (including promoters and clubs) as bedroom DJ toys. They are seen as automated push button solutions for DJs who want to spin but without learning the craft like the vinyl DJs did before Serato/Final Scratch/Traktor. Controllers also aren't as 'sexy' and lack the 'showiness' of two turntables and a mixer. Sure, there are exceptions, but in all generalities this is true.

First, let get something straight: Whether you push buttons, spin records, or tap a keyboard, if your music comes from your laptop you are technically using a controller. It's amazing to me how this concept hasn't taken shape in a lot of the minds of the vinyl DJs especially with the acceptance of the Novation Dicer into the turntable world.

I do believe controllers are the future of the DJ, but not the immediate future. Vinyl DJ's (ie...Serato/Tractor Scratch) are very reluctant to give up their reliable tables and jump into technology they might not understand. Can you blame them? Turntables have been the standard since the DJ came into existence. Plus turntables are the DJ icon or, in so many words, the unofficial logo for the DJ.

The mistake that is being made by the current controller market is that the controller is to replace the turntable. That you EITHER have a controller OR turntables. Not many options for a hybrid.

The controller world has addressed this to a point with platters and jog wheels. This is good, but misses the mark. The NS7 is a nice but the wheels 'of steel' are too small to appeal to the vinyl DJ. Plus it's Numark and they have yet to make any piece of equipment that is well respected to the traditional pro DJ world (ie..Rane 56, Vestax 05/07, etc...). Plus the size of the thing made it difficult to transport and fit into most DJ booths.

Along these lines, controllers need to take into consideration the things that vinyl DJs (and turntablists) look for, especially in faders. User replaceable faders would be a start. Also using high quality crossfaders (or well known alternatives) would also help. Making a controller that adheres to what vinyl DJs in a mixer is the key.

Another issue that the controller world has completely WRONG and only shows to the traditional vinyl DJs that controllers are toys is the lack of a booth output. To assume that you're plugging the controller into a club mixer for use of a booth output is implying that the controller is inferior and not ready for mainstream club integration. Also it says that the controller isn't ideal for most situations. For example, I DJ in the desert which means a lot of outside club gigs. Usually the Dj booth is far away from the dance floor (being in a cabana or inside an actual booth) where a booth output is needed.

Also, the controller manufacturers need to come up with a better way to handle a microphone. Sending the mic through software for whatever reason is ludicrous.

To some, booth outputs and mic options might be getting close to the line between club gear and mobile DJ gear. But let's think about this for a minute: most DJs bring their own gear to clubs anyway. I've seen a growing trend that clubs usually have a DJ booth that is empty and only provide rca/xlr/mixer for a DJ to plug into for floor sound. It all comes down to the fact that controllers need to be more self sufficient.

So why Vestax and Traktor?

Why not Vestax and Serato?
First off, I think Serato made a huge mistake by introducing Itch. Behind the scenes I'm not sure what Rane and Serato worked out, but Itch only segregated the controllerists from the vinyl-ists. Traktor on the other hand doesn't. Yes, there are multiple versions of Traktor to suit needs but all-in-all if you work with one version of Traktor, you can work in all versions.

Why Traktor?
As I stated above, Traktor basically looks the same across all versions and doesn't make one version that appears to be more important than the other. Serato Scratch is more respected than running Itch. I understand the reasoning behind Itch; I just don't agree 100%.

Plus (NI) Traktor has been producing software for ages, allows more than 2 decks in its flagship software, plus has a slew of options and features. In my opinion it is the best DJ software out there.

Why Vestax?
Here is is the thing with Vestax: it's a respected brand with solid gear in the vinyl world. Rane is too invested in Serato right now. Vestax has a good reputation especially with its 05/07 line of mixers. Heck, you can still rock an older 05/07 as a scratch mixer without issue. Point being is that they have a solid reputation among the vinyl purists.

How can Traktor and Vestax bring controllerism mainstream?
Work on making a mixer similar to the Rane 57 but more with more controller features while leaving it feeling like a mixer.

Scratch included, but optional.
Include Traktor Scratch inside the mixer. Allow for this to be upgraded via USB so if Traktor scratch 3 comes out there won't be issue with upgrades. Make it possible to turn off Traktor if the DJ needed to reboot the computer or use audio provided by turntables/CD players.

Stay with the familiar
Use the same mixer-esque layout Vestax already has. Allow for user replaceable faders and hardware controls for faders curves and reverse (hamster) style.

Don't junk up the mixer
Keep mixer functionality in one area (closest to the DJ) and controller functionality in another. There shouldn't be jog wheels or huge play buttons (if any at all - this could be an add-on). Keep the controller functions on the mixer to track selection, effects, loops, and fader controls. Other functions like start, stop, and pause should be left to the audio source.

Keep the price low
Of course, right? Keep this thing under the $900 price to be competitive with what's out there.

I'm sure I've missed the boat a few times, but this is what I am missing while looking for a controller.

[tito]

Apart from price Point the xone 4d definitely solves your needs, that is why I got it, having the same feelings that you have.

[blur]

Yeah, it is pricey though!

[Garygary1]

I'd, personally, like to keep my arms and legs

[DvlsAdvct]

It's just easier to go through this point by point. Good to know that people are still making posts like this all these months since I left.

Frustrations
As it stands now, and from what I'm hearing and reading, controllers are being looked at by the established professional DJ world (including promoters and clubs) as bedroom DJ toys. ...

This is something that is very hard to combat, practically impossible, in fact. The only wa to deal with this is to DJ. Controllers are totally sexier, though. At least, the sexy controllers are.

First, let get something straight: Whether you push buttons, spin records, or tap a keyboard, if your music comes from your laptop you are technically using a controller. It's amazing to me how this concept hasn't taken shape in a lot of the minds of the vinyl DJs especially with the acceptance of the Novation Dicer into the turntable world.

By default, you are right. digital vinyl DJs are using the vinyl as a "controller" in the broad sense of the phrase. However, they are using it as a classic setup. There is a HUGE difference between that and me walking in with a MIDIFighter and a VCI-100, or a Launchpad and a UC33-e. Vinyl DJs using digital vinyl are not using controllers in the same sense.

I do believe controllers are the future of the DJ, but not the immediate future. ...

The mistake that is being made by the current controller market is that the controller is to replace the turntable. That you EITHER have a controller OR turntables. Not many options for a hybrid.

This is going to change slowly, but surely. It already has been. There are many vinyl DJs I know who would be insulted to be compared to someone who used Serato and Traktor, so the stereotypes still exist regardless.

There are a LOT of hybrid options. You have drum controllers (Trigger Finger/PadKontrol), digital samplers (Maschine), easy to use editors (Slicer), things to sit in between (SCS1.m, VCI-100), complete replacement options (the SCS1d's), and then more complicated setups that everyone around here gets into eventually. It's actually really easy to have both, people just don't know about it.

The controller world has addressed this to a point with platters and jog wheels. This is good, but misses the mark. The NS7 is a nice but the wheels 'of steel' are too small to appeal to the vinyl DJ. Plus it's Numark and they have yet to make any piece of equipment that is well respected to the traditional pro DJ world (ie..Rane 56, Vestax 05/07, etc...). Plus the size of the thing made it difficult to transport and fit into most DJ booths.

Yeah the NS7 is just way too big for live use in a club. But it's more a replacement option than a hybrid choice. But this comes down to how we define a controller in this discussion.

Along these lines, controllers need to take into consideration the things that vinyl DJs (and turntablists) look for, especially in faders. User ...

Why do this, though? Controllers need to be for people who use controllers. Vinyl DJs have specific things in mind, and those needs are already met by a (in my opinion) saturated market. If a vinyl DJ wants to go digital there are TONS of avenues for that already.

Another issue that the controller world has completely WRONG and only shows to the traditional vinyl DJs that controllers are toys is the lack of a booth output. To assume that you're plugging the controller into a club mixer for use of a booth output is implying that the controller is inferior and not ready for mainstream club integration. Also it says that the controller isn't ideal for most situations. For example, I DJ in the desert which means a lot of outside club gigs. Usually the Dj booth is far away from the dance floor (being in a cabana or inside an actual booth) where a booth output is needed.

That's not necessarily the failing of all controllers. Get a sound card with more outs. If I need a booth out I can have one with my Audio8, or I can run it into my 4 Channel mixer and have a booth out. Hell, with Traktor and an Audio4 you can have a booth out easily.

Also, the controller manufacturers need to come up with a better way to handle a microphone. Sending the mic through software for whatever reason is ludicrous.

Then use an external mixer/mixing board. Hell, buy a cheap-o Behringer 4-in board, use two ins for your sound card and two ins for your mic. Or get an external mixer. If you want an all-in-one mixer/controller solution you're going to have to spend a LOT more than putting it together bit by bit. A good MIDI controller with a strong sound card and a little audio routing can fix this issue in a hot second.

To some, booth outputs and mic options might be getting close to the line between club gear and mobile DJ gear. But let's think about this for a minute: most DJs bring their own gear to clubs anyway. I've seen a growing trend that clubs usually have a DJ booth that is empty and only provide rca/xlr/mixer for a DJ to plug into for floor sound. It all comes down to the fact that controllers need to be more self sufficient.

What controllers are not self sufficient? I can show up to a club with my sound card, controller and laptop and have everything I need. Everything. Arguably you run into an issue with a mic, but that's easily remedied as well.

So why Vestax and Traktor?

Why not Vestax and Serato?
First off, I think Serato made a huge mistake by introducing Itch. Behind the scenes I'm not sure what Rane and Serato worked out, but Itch only segregated the controllerists from the vinyl-ists. Traktor on the other hand doesn't. Yes, there are multiple versions of Traktor to suit needs but all-in-all if you work with one version of Traktor, you can work in all versions.

If you buy Traktor Pro you don't get access to the vinyl emulation. If you buy a controller for Serato you get itch, if you buy the soundcard for Vinyl use you get Serato Scratch. They actually made it easier for people who wanted to use Serato but didn't want to use turntables. These are, in my mind, the same things.

[QUPTE]
Why Traktor?
...
Plus (NI) Traktor has been producing software for ages, allows more than 2 decks in its flagship software, plus has a slew of options and features. In my opinion it is the best DJ software out there.[/QUOTE]

I agree that it is a better option, but that's personal preference. I can see your concern with Serato making Scratch out to be more important, but really the only difference is what you have plugged into your computer to control the software, no different than Traktor. Not really sure what you're complaint is.

Why Vestax?
Here is is the thing with Vestax: it's a respected brand with solid gear in the vinyl world. Rane is too invested in Serato right now. Vestax has a good reputation especially with its 05/07 line of mixers. Heck, you can still rock an older 05/07 as a scratch mixer without issue. Point being is that they have a solid reputation among the vinyl purists.

But Vestax totally dropped the ball with the VCI-100MkII. *shrug* And NI now has the S4. They are a respected name in some ways, but not in others. And why are vinyl purists, in general, going to jump to controllers? They are purists. Half the reason most of the people here switched was cause they were sick of A) purists and B) lugging around vinyl.

[quote]
How can Traktor and Vestax bring controllerism mainstream?
Work on making a mixer similar to the Rane 57 but more with more controller features while leaving it feeling like a mixer.

Scratch included, but optional.
Include Traktor Scratch inside the mixer. Allow for this to be upgraded via USB so if Traktor scratch 3 comes out there won't be issue with upgrades. Make it possible to turn off Traktor if the DJ needed to reboot the computer or use audio provided by turntables/CD players.[/QUOTE

So... what you're saying is you want a mixer that connects via USB and can also control vinyl externally, which exists already. There are a bunch of them. Hell, if you run an Audio8 into a 4 channel mixer you can switch to control vinyl while the computer restarts.

Stay with the familiar
Use the same mixer-esque layout Vestax already has. Allow for user replaceable faders and hardware controls for faders curves and reverse (hamster) style.

Or they can try and change the playing field. Just cause it's old doesn't mean it's better.

Don't junk up the mixer
Keep mixer functionality in one area (closest to the DJ) and controller functionality in another. There shouldn't be jog wheels or huge play buttons (if any at all - this could be an add-on). Keep the controller functions on the mixer to track selection, effects, loops, and fader controls. Other functions like start, stop, and pause should be left to the audio source.

Why not just use a mixer with a sound card? Or, use something like the SCS1.m? This isn't very convenient cause I can't see it being easy to be done right, and there are SO many options to do this already it doesn't make a lot of sense to do it this way.

Keep the price low
Of course, right? Keep this thing under the $900 price to be competitive with what's out there.

Cheap is good, but cheap is cheap, and that's not always good.

I think there are a lot of options for what you want to do, they just aren't all-in-one. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. If you want to use jog wheel controllers with a digital mixer with Traktor, you can. Just not from all one company.

[tekki]

w00t! Return of the big man! ANd what a glorious return it is!
I can only add a big +1 to this!

[deevey]

Keep mixer functionality in one area (closest to the DJ) and controller functionality in another. There shouldn't be jog wheels or huge play buttons (if any at all - this could be an add-on).

So you want an uncluttered professional standard mixer with built in scratch certification and midi control functions & Traktor working out of the box.

Phew!

Ok .. so you get an NI certified soundcard for 4 decks ... $500

You add a professional mixer ... $500

You add professional quality midi control to it ...$$

And .......Oops you have virtually no knobs buttons and midi goodness apart from your mixer controls because you just got rid of them all to keep things uncluttered for the vinyl purists

Keep the controller functions on the mixer to track selection, effects, loops, and fader controls. Other functions like start, stop, and pause should be left to the audio source.

So now you need deck controls (buy/bring more gear?)

Soo ... Oh shitz!

Guess we're back to using the pesky trackpad to cue and play again :P

Question is how is all this going to make the vinyl junkies take controllerism more seriously ... hmmmmm

Whats the target market for this marvel anyhow? .. Install / Mobile / Rental?

And who will it keep ultimately happy ? You seem to be trying hard to keep all concerned with a smile on their face but concentrating mostly on the very people who will (in all probability) not WANT to be converted. Yet you do away with alot of the Plus factors that all-in-one controllers have to offer (control?). Keeping everyone happy unfortunatly can, in many cases, just stand in the way of natural progression.

Here's where I see yet another issue arising, most scratch DJ's I've ever worked with prefer a 2 channel Vestax style mixer as opposed to a 4/6/8 channel club style one. On more than a few occasions scratch DJ's I worked with brought their own mixers and piggybacked onto the Club mixer via line in anyhow.

So perhaps a VMS4 with a certified card and if you hacksaw those 2 pesky controller sections off perhaps would do the trick, booth and mic handled nicely ?

Point being is that they (vestax) have a solid reputation among the vinyl purists.

Vestax as mixers go really aren't THAT great except for their obvious turntablism pedigree, they are not great. When it comes to quality they are Toyota is to Audi when compared with Rane, Urei or Forumla Sound. Yes they rock the scratch world perhaps but I have yet to see one installed in a club (maybe in the US moreso??).

controllers are being looked at by the established professional DJ world (including promoters and clubs) as bedroom DJ toys

It seems to be that many of the bigger (5 figure) DJ's are the one utilizing these bedroom toys the most and in some case to the greatest effect... the stigmatism of controllers seems to always come from the "middle ground" DJ's, the ones that are not earning the big money and looking to justify themselves as "REAL" dj's to the world.

The same stigmatism was true when dual CD players started appearing in clubs and even moreso when CDJ's began appearing. Dual head CD players were kinda accepted as they were being restricted in use by top40 jocks. And weren't stepping on any "Real dj's" toes.

I was once that "Real Dj" I scoffed, think I told horror stories to my mates about "that guy", and probably even vomited a little in the back of my throat when the new DJ playing after me walked in with a 12'x12'x4' wallet of CD's rather than 2x12kg record boxes!

What happened ? .. I watched, I saw the possibilities emerge .. seeing loop functions and keylock being used properly on a CDJ for the first time my eyes widened and I saw the light, thats all it took.

I'm suprised the V7 wasn't mentioned which is more of a Hybrid and not "too" big when compared to the NS7.. Denon's 3700 is pretty much a true hybrid in the sense it can send control signals and play other media and has a decent sized spinning platter.

Understandably all-in-one controllers to a great extent have been botched BIGTIME, with 2 notable exceptions being the VMS4 and MC6000 which have really embraced their analogue cousins and given them a part to play.. Both your Mic input/Booth, independent Mixer the VMS4 even has *gasp* innofader compatibility.

If anything creating your hybrid "keep the purists happy" mixer, soundcard, uncluttered thingy. Would seem to solidify the gap between controllerism being accepted and vinyl or at the very least control vinyl, 1210's & Vestax's sticking around forever.

Remember the controllerists today are the promoters and DJ agents of tomorrow.... if you can wait for tomorrow that is.

I hope the future holds
"Oh so your one of those vinyl Dj's eh? Haven't seen one of those things in a while... Ah good you have your own gear with you we don't see too much of that stuff anymore. Oh you need to get sound, Sure, plug that thing into the DJ boxes sound card over there and hit "input" on the Traktor deck"

WTF do you mean HOW to choose input in Traktor !!! Are you actually a DJ or what ?

[josh@firestorm]

w00t! Return of the big man! ANd what a glorious return it is!
I can only add a big +1 to this!

+100

Understandably all-in-one controllers to a great extent have been botched BIGTIME, with 2 notable exceptions being the VMS4 and MC6000 which have really embraced their analogue cousins and given them a part to play.. Both your Mic input/Booth, independent Mixer the VMS4 even has *gasp* innofader compatibility.

exactly, also the Reeloop Digital Jockey 3 comes to mind - and as was pointed out by Dvls as well, you can use any traditional mixer you want with a soundcard.

OP it sounds like you need to research the options that are already available a little more. The beauty of digital DJ'ing is that the options and configurations out there on the market are virtually endless, and there's something out there for everyone. you just have to know what your looking for and how you're looking for it.

Dvls, good tip with using an external mic mixer and running soundcard into that. I never would have thought of that - however I will never need to use a mic

[DvlsAdvct]

Dvls, good tip with using an external mic mixer and running soundcard into that. I never would have thought of that - however I will never need to use a mic

The last thing anyone wants is me on a mic, I totally understand. That's why I bring a busted mic cable with me wherever I go so I can just be like "sorry dude, must be your mic or something"

[IznremiX]

i recently got rid of my tts and am goin the more controllerist route with a s4, x1 and maschine.

tbh i do get some raised eye brows but i think if you can use controllers well then people begin to open up.