DDM4000 Vs xone dx with Traktor Internal Mixer
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  1. #1
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    Default DDM4000 Vs xone dx with Traktor Internal Mixer

    Guys,

    I just wanted to get a your opinions on this.

    I am thinking of hooking up my xone dx with my audio 10 for 4 decks in traktor, 2 of them being timecode on 1210s. Currently I have a ddm4000 in external mixer mode with just the 2 12010s on timecode and thought of using the ddm for different setup.

    How do you think the traktor internal mixer will sound compared to the ddm4000. I think the tactile feel of the Xone DX will be better than the ddm so its mainly about the audio quality and eq ranges.

    Cheers

    Tim

  2. #2
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    As Behringer mixer aren't known for their excellent sound quality you should get at least equal, probably better, sound quality form the internal mixer in traktor.

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    Tech Mentor racoon's Avatar
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    what's about setup and try?

    having no experience with behringer mixers and tried the traktor internal only once to laught about it, i can't give you an productive answer besides: try it! ;o)
    ( www.sickinc.org ~ a psychedelic trance ritual )

  4. #4
    Tech Guru keeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TCMuc View Post
    As Behringer mixer aren't known for their excellent sound quality you should get at least equal, probably better, sound quality form the internal mixer in traktor.
    They're not known for their sound quality, but you also get a lot more headroom mixing externally. Also, Traktor's internal mixer isn't exactly known for its sound quality either and any time I've compared it to an external mixer it has lost, hands down. You may as well try it to compare the two since you already have the gear, but in my experience you're far better off mixing externally with Traktor if at all possible. If you want to avoid physically swapping out the Behringer, you could use it with midi to control Traktor's internal mixer and just route your audio output to one of the channels. You'll need a midi cable for this from what I remember of the DDM4000, but it would save you a bit of hassle anyway. Really though you may as well just try it out and see.

  5. #5
    Tech Guru deevey's Avatar
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    but in my experience you're far better off mixing externally with Traktor if at all possible.
    Your Audio will only sound as good as the last link in the chain..

    I'm assuming you'd be using the DX's sound card which is pretty damn nice... I'd imagine the DX straight up + Traktor should sound better than routing stuff though the Behringer (which are not known for the best sound quality) once you don't push hard on the gains in Traktor.

    Its a shame the DX wont do timecode natively in Traktor t'would save you needing an Audio-x

    From Native Instruments in Dec regarding Sound Quality + Headroom:

    Hi, with version 2.1.1 we have introduced the "Internal Mixer Headroom" option to TRAKTOR. This option basically introduces headroom between the "orange" and the "red" of the master level for avoiding that peaks instantly clip or trigger the limiter (if enabled).

    We also fixed a few bugs in the area - in previous versions TRAKTOR's limiter actually _did_ kick in too early, which induced many to turn it off. This is no longer required with version 2.1.2.

    Finally it is important to know that the only EQ which is really neutral when centering the knobs is the "Classic" one. The other EQ models always _do_ color the sound as you described (which is what they do on the corresponding emulated mixers as well).

    I'd suggest to your professional friend to repeat his analysis with version 2.1.2 set to "Classic" EQ and let us know his verdict.
    On another note, do you actually need to route the timecode though an Audio4/8/6/10 or just need it plugged in as a dongle to make scratch work (saving unessesary cables).
    Last edited by deevey; 02-15-2012 at 11:22 AM.

  6. #6
    Tech Guru keeb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deevey View Post
    Your Audio will only sound as good as the last link in the chain..

    I'm assuming you'd be using the DX's sound card which is pretty damn nice... I'd imagine the DX straight up + Traktor should sound better than routing stuff though the Behringer (which are not known for the best sound quality) once you don't push hard on the gains in Traktor.

    Its a shame the DX wont do timecode natively in Traktor t'would save you needing an Audio-x

    From Native Instruments in Dec regarding Sound Quality + Headroom:



    On another note, do you actually need to route the timecode though an Audio4/8/6/10 or just need it plugged in as a dongle to make scratch work (saving unessesary cables).
    For one, you don't need the Audio 4/6/8/10 as a dongle for scratch to work unless you're using timecode.


    Take the following with a grain of salt because it's a combination of personal experience, internet research, and logical deduction. I'm not a sound engineer by any means, but I do know a thing or two.

    As for the NI headroom deal - you're still dealing with a headroom cap per channel of output. The "headroom" with Traktor's internal mixer just effectively lowers the gain to make avoiding clipping easier. Basically they're just turning down the volume, which doesn't properly give you more headroom and as I understand it from my research about production, you're also losing a bit of sound quality by doing this digitally in software. You're limited by the headroom on your soundcard - mixing externally you can send hot inputs to the mixer which has further headroom above that of the inputs. I'm not claiming to know the exact audio science here but I can tell you that the reason I decided to sell my S4 was that I was unhappy with the sound quality of Traktor's internal mixer. I'm not sure about behringer etc. and I know this statement is muddled by soundcard differences, but both my Mackie d.4 Pro and subsequently my DJM 900 sound miles better than my S4 does. Considering the S4 supposedly has the same sound quality as the Audio 4, I chalk up the bulk of the difference to external mixing. I'm going to hazard a guess that the external mixing sound quality piece is part of why Serato has stayed away from including an internal mixer with SSL.

    Those points aside, think about it this way; which is more likely to sound better: sound processing (mixing and EQing) done in $200 software with non-dedicated hardware or sound processing done by dedicated and more expensive hardware designed from the ground up to do the job? I'm not sure exactly how bad the SQ on the DDM4000 is, but it's worth at least an A/B listening test vs. the internal mixer. You also can take advantage of the effects on the DDM4000 mixing externally, though I don't know if that's actually much of a benefit considering what I've heard of their quality.

  7. #7
    Tech Guru deevey's Avatar
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    For one, you don't need the Audio 4/6/8/10 as a dongle for scratch to work unless you're using timecode.
    Sorry I'd meant if you already have the audio4/8 etc plugged in, could you use the DX as your Turntable Input and save needing to wire up 2 sound cards.

    Those points aside, think about it this way; which is more likely to sound better: sound processing (mixing and EQing) done in $200 software with non-dedicated hardware or sound processing done by dedicated and more expensive hardware designed from the ground up to do the job?
    Personally I fancy my chances better with sound quality on a $200 piece of software + decent sound card than with a $200 mixer, if he was using a Xone or DJM I'd be inclined to agree

    Once you throw FX/Keylock etc onto your track, your sound quality is surely gone past the point of no-return anyhow though ?

    The DX's sound card has pretty hot master outputs according to the review on this very site, you can always turn off the limiters in Traktor & keep things in the green/orange and turn up your Amps.

  8. #8
    Tech Guru djproben's Avatar
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    I had a lot of beefs with the DDM4k but sound quality really wasn't one of them. It sounded far better than I had expected it to. I never did a side by side comparison with internal mixing on the Audio 8 soundcard (and in fact I mostly routed traktor through the soundcard and then into the DDM since I was using timecode) but as I recall it did sound much louder mixed through the DDM, for whatever that's worth. But yeah the Allen and Heath will sound hella better.

    The other advantage to your DDM is EQ ranges, which is something you mentioned -- I really miss the ability to change the EQ range to make the EQs sound like a DJM or like an A+H or Ecler or whatever else. That works and sounds FAR better than the internal EQ options in Traktor, in my opinion, and I doubt that is available on the Xone DX. [It should be available on the DB4 but it's not for some reason; you can get it on the Denon DN-X1700 or the Ecler Evo 5 tho if you're interested]. With the A+H I am pretty sure you'll be stuck with one set of EQ ranges (though it's probably the best one so no worries there
    "Art is what you can get away with." - Marshall McLuhan

  9. #9
    Tech Guru djproben's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deevey View Post
    Sorry I'd meant if you already have the audio4/8 etc plugged in, could you use the DX as your Turntable Input and save needing to wire up 2 sound cards.
    Nope. Timecode only works if you are using the Audio X as the soundcard; the dongle theory doesn't work. It's a really dumb thing, imho, but there it is.
    "Art is what you can get away with." - Marshall McLuhan

  10. #10
    Tech Guru deevey's Avatar
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    Nope. Timecode only works if you are using the Audio X as the soundcard; the dongle theory doesn't work. It's a really dumb thing, imho, but there it is.
    I got curious, about that, I vaguely remembered Armyofme had posted way back using the phono inputs on the hercules RMX for scratch pro if the Audio-x is aggregated with another Soundcard - with newer traktor I dunno though.

    http://www.herculesdjconsole.org/856...-8-needed.htm/

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