My face when the experienced DJ's levels are in the RED

[rotebass]

Two things.

1) As for the DJM 900 anyway (not sure if this applies to the 800 etc.) I read a post by one of the tech guys over on the Pio forums a while back stating that the ideal spot to run your channels and master is around +4 db. I'm not a sound engineer by any means, nor do I pretend to be an expert in the area, but to my ears +4 does sound like a pretty solid sweet spot in practice.

Much like our GB8 can safely run up to +15 and sound crisp and clear, the scales on most mixers, both DJ and professional, can easily be called relative. It's up to the operator to know his gear and use his ears.

[keeb]

Much like our GB8 can safely run up to +16 and sound crisp and clear, the scales on most mixers, both DJ and professional, can easily be called relative. It's up to the operator to know his gear and use his ears.

No doubt - the problem with running a mixer at constant peak though is that you lose any measure of how loudly you're running things. I don't expect +4db to actually be +4db, but from a practicality standpoint it gives you a fair bit of room above and below that level on the meters to see where your volume's at. If you're running at +12 even, you have no idea if you're actually running at +18 since you're already above the top of the meter on the Pio mixer.

Using your ears to check your levels can work - but not reliably, especially with listening fatigue factored in. Meters aren't infallible, but they're there for a reason. +4db on the mixer at the end of the night will not sound like +4db at the start of the night, even if the meters are accurate. But, like I said - I'm no expert. I'll leave the rest of this debate up to the armchair sound engineers

[rotebass]

No doubt - the problem with running a mixer at constant peak though is that you lose any measure of how loudly you're running things. I don't expect +4db to actually be +4db, but from a practicality standpoint it gives you a fair bit of room above and below that level on the meters to see where your volume's at. If you're running at +12 even, you have no idea if you're actually running at +18 since you're already above the top of the meter on the Pio mixer.

Using your ears to check your levels can work - but not reliably, especially with listening fatigue factored in. Meters aren't infallible, but they're there for a reason. +4db on the mixer at the end of the night will not sound like +4db at the start of the night, even if the meters are accurate. But, like I said - I'm no expert. I'll leave the rest of this debate up to the armchair sound engineers

All valid points, my GB8 does meter up to +18, I don't think I've ever hit that level, but then we go back to my argument about properly spec'ing a rig for the job.

For the record, I've been audio engineering for 13 years. 6 years as a hobbyist and 7 years professionally (ie. buying a house and raising a family only with income made from audio engineering), I am house engineer for a 1300 seat theatre with a BSS processed rig, I also work for a rental/production shop that does a minimum of two gigs and over half a dozen dry rentals a week. I also spec, sell, install and service audio systems for a number of different environments and nothing is more frustrating then talking to a new or prospective client and having to correct all the false information that so called "armchair sound engineers" have taught them. If I sound like a dick or a know-it-all, I apologize, I just don't feel that mis-information should be spread as fact.

[SirReal]

All valid points, my GB8 does meter up to +18, I don't think I've ever hit that level, but then we go back to my argument about properly spec'ing a rig for the job.

For the record, I've been audio engineering for 13 years. 6 years as a hobbyist and 7 years professionally (ie. buying a house and raising a family only with income made from audio engineering), I am house engineer for a 1300 seat theatre with a BSS processed rig, I also work for a rental/production shop that does a minimum of two gigs and over half a dozen dry rentals a week. I also spec, sell, install and service audio systems for a number of different environments and nothing is more frustrating then talking to a new or prospective client and having to correct all the false information that so called "armchair sound engineers" have taught them. If I sound like a dick or a know-it-all, I apologize, I just don't feel that mis-information should be spread as fact.

I think you're pretty much spot on and not coming across as a dick at all. While there are quite a few things in the audio world that are debatable, there's also certain constants that aren't and you're just pointing out some basic, solid info regarding level's and signal flow. Thanks for taking the time.

[keeb]

All valid points, my GB8 does meter up to +18, I don't think I've ever hit that level, but then we go back to my argument about properly spec'ing a rig for the job.

For the record, I've been audio engineering for 13 years. 6 years as a hobbyist and 7 years professionally (ie. buying a house and raising a family only with income made from audio engineering), I am house engineer for a 1300 seat theatre with a BSS processed rig, I also work for a rental/production shop that does a minimum of two gigs and over half a dozen dry rentals a week. I also spec, sell, install and service audio systems for a number of different environments and nothing is more frustrating then talking to a new or prospective client and having to correct all the false information that so called "armchair sound engineers" have taught them. If I sound like a dick or a know-it-all, I apologize, I just don't feel that mis-information should be spread as fact.

Yeah I don't doubt you have credentials, experience, etc. It's just that on an internet forum like this, everyone's an expert. And in a lot of cases, multiple people with legit experience will have differing opinions. Like I said - I don't have a whole lot of experience in the area, but just wanted to point out that the answer's not always "well he's just an idiot" when a DJ runs into the red. Oh, and for the record I never redline with the exception of the Pio filters - but as long as I'm paying attention I'll turn down the gain to compensate for the resonance as needed, or EQ instead of filtering (which in most cases will sound better on a DJM 900 in my experience anyway). Keep on spinnin'.

[audiolive]

I thought I'd weigh in here now as I'm also a Professional Sound Engineer. I've been gigging, building, designing tuning PA's since the mid 90's. Probably done more gigs then some here have had hot dinners. First off there are many variables when it comes to failure from a squared signal. Failure will depend on many things. The most important factor is a squared signal that is amplified through a system that is close to its physical and electrical limit. It will eventually be damaged or fail completely. The reason is the voice coils are at a very fragile state when they are close to their limit. A square wave will push them over there thermal tolerance and they will fail Limiter or no Limiter. This of course also applies when you have too much power running into a speaker cab no matter what the signal is. Limiters are used to control output voltages to protect your speakers from over excursion and voice coil failure. When I design and setup a rig I always allow more than enough headroom both in the amplifier and speaker cabinets. If this means extra boxes need to be loaded in for higher SPL so fucking be it. Many seem to forget that a PA is also a mechanical thing as well as an electrical thing. SO a well setup system with gains matched all throughout with decent headroom will take a clipped signal and will be able to deal with it. I'm not saying it's right to have a clipping mixer. I hate it and will always voice my disgust to those that do run in the red. It's not hard to ask for a bit more 'herbs' if the superstar (DJ ) thinks he/she needs it. The other reason apart from possibly damaging a system is most DJ mixers sound like ass to begin with yet alone when they are running in the read (Pioneers especially). Any way that’s my tried true and fully tested experience over the last 17 years.

[rotebass]

Yeah I don't doubt... ..experience anyway). Keep on spinnin'.

It's all good man, you seem to know that magic rule which is to know your shit and how it operates.

audiolive pretty much nails it on all points.