Denon Mc3000

[makar1]

Meters on MIDI controllers aren't the same as on hardware mixers like the MC6000 for example.

Anything you see on the MC3000 channel LEDs (when set to "Deck") is not related to the sound card as you are mixing internally; they are only there to help you balance the virtual gains between your decks.

[dillinger23]

er..... yes. That is not news. They are the levels of your virtual decks, which means they are the levels of your decks so your point is, in a word... pointless. Also when they are in master mode (it has both) they give a read out of your master volume, and as I have said the master volume on the unit is actually independent of the internal software master volume, a very nice touch as when you are recording (on internal mixing mode), any adjustment to the master volume does not affect the volume of the recorded mix, which is NOT the case in most other midi controllers that are basically 'internal' mixers. I'm sorry for my earlier rudeness makar1, but you seem to deliberately misinterpret my words or be obtuse just to write on this thread, when all I was doing was giving the unit respect and love. Also, whether they are virtual decks being represented visually by LED meters or physical decks being represented visually by LED meters is COMPLETELY irrelevant. They are two sources of music whose volume is being represented visually, end of story.

PS, the LED meters are cute on the MC3000, but unfortunately not nearly good enough to rely on for public performance.

[technicaltitch]

Just wanted to add my love for the MC3000. I had an S4 before my MC3000 and the MC3000 was like a revolution, it was a big step up, in sound quality, build quality, driver reliability, jog feel, output levels, and fun of DJing as everything is so well engineered and feels gorgeous. I love mine so much I am buying my second while they are still available. Only proviso is while the jogs are better than the S4, scratching is still hard, and you might want to tweak the 4-deck mappings if you use that function heavily (I only need four decks a few times a night, for which it is fine). Other than that the unit is perfect. Had mine for a couple years now, plugged it into some unbelievably bad sound desks, and it always delivers and then some. Also sounds better than any of the soundcards I've accumulated over the years for studio work.

This was the review I put on Amazon - the inferior quality higher priced rival I refer to is the S4:

I am in love with this controller. I have DJed since mid-90s, produced since early-00s, and followed every related technological advance en-route like a gear junkie. I've had this controller for 8 months, using it for studio mixes on monitors and professional gigs through hulking great sound systems and bass bins.

Getting this controller was an epiphany up there with my first pair of 1210s.

Before this controller I had gone high-budget, as I was sick of technology issues taking me away from the music, and I wanted something that just plugged in and worked, and got out of the way, so I got the S4. What a mistake. The Denon DN-MC3000 is WAY ahead of the S4. (I am nothing to do with Denon or NI.)

The internal audio architecture is pro-grade analogue, meaning it easily drives any desk or sound-system. No matter how beaten up or frazzled the sound-system, this controller makes sure every little detail is pushed through, (and provides balanced and unbalanced, high and low impedance outs - so you never need to worry about engineering before a gig). Some complain that it can't be USB-powered - but to me this is a major advantage over others, (such as the S4). You wouldn't USB-power any other signal source, such as a CD player, so it beggars belief you'd try to get a professional sound from a low current, 5V supply. The sound comes out in bucket-loads, (including the monitor output - be safe). Additionally, because of the independent power source and the analogue internals, the mixer is unphased if you unplug the laptop while feeding an audio signal through one of its analogue lines. Having the digital technology as auxiliary to the analogue audio functionality that is central to this mixer seems a major engineering strength. Like all good audio equipment, you run this mixer hot to get the best sound out of it. The beautiful, silky rich bass reminds me of my best Vestax mixers. You can hear Denon's heritage in the engineering immediately. It is also built like a tank.

Then there is the MIDI. I love that the MIDI comes second, that's how laptop DJing should be, (ie, not about the technology but the sound). The Denon works out of the box with Traktor and Virtual DJ, but if you want to tweak any of it, you are in for uninhibited delight, again and again. This side of the controller has also been way over-engineered in every way. The resolution of the pitch faders exceeds that of Traktor, so you can shift by 0.01% increments on a +/-8% range. Some of the buttons have specific controller-side functions, such as the deck selection changing the MIDI page of other controls. Some are pure MIDI controllers. But EVERYTHING, even the mic ducking button, sends at least one MIDI signal, even though that is totally unnecessary to sell the unit and meet their public spec. The paging is also over-engineered - even though filters didn't need to be paged by deck selection they are, for example - so you can do what you want with them paged or not. This means you can make the controller do anything you can imagine in the simplest way possible. The jogs feel identical in precision to the S4 ones, but they are standard MIDI, meaning complete reliability and compatibility and customizability. In every other way they are superior to the S4 ones, as they have weight, and have touch-sensitive platters and non-touch trims, (the S4's are spring-loaded and plastic). The drivers are also sublime - starting and stopping Traktor and using the Denon with DAWs as a standard soundcard is seamless, (and being analogue you can hear the soundcard on the separate monitor line). Once, and only once, of the countless times I've connected this thing, I think a DAW program took exclusive control of the ASIO drivers so Traktor couldn't see them when it fired up, necessitating unplugging and reconnecting the Denon for Traktor to grab the sound. I'm not even sure the drivers could override a Win7 exclusive ASIO lock. And this is once in 8 months of fairly intensive use, and this is the only error I have ever experienced.

If I had to criticize this controller in any way it would be the encoder knob - it needs more of them and it can feel a little light; the lack of documentation on the MIDI out signals so it is hard to re-programme the lights, (although again when you do, you realize they have more functions (colours and shades) than Denon advertises); and it'd be good to have something capable of displaying numbers on the controller, so you don't have to look at the screen to see your loop length for example.

But you have to see these minor niggles in context. With several past iterations of controllers and software I've had to reserve half an hour or more before gigs to ensure everything on the laptop side is working and performant, and another half an hour matching signal impedances, etc. I've had this controller in use for 8 months now, and I'm a demanding user, and there has been just one single time when I've had to reconnect the controller. Never had to restart the laptop, never had to make a change to the default Windows 7 setup, no custom Win7 install, no killing services and devices, etc. Countless, countless times in all manner of circumstances and technical complexities, this controller just plugs in and works, first time, absolutely perfectly, for the duration, running tiny scratch-compatible latencies, with no tweaks necessary to Windows 7 at all. For gigs this and sound are the bottom line. This to me is a revolution in controller DJing, I have fallen in love again like when I first got Technics, and this controller deserves to be wildly popular.

[technicaltitch]

In the last couple comments there seems to be a bit of confusion on levels. The way to use these is to, while sound checking, use the Master setting to calibrate the output level, so that when Traktor is within a few dbs of maximum (in the master VU meter at the top of the screen), the Master level LEDs on Denon Master setting are just about pushing into red. This ensures that the unit is using all its headroom when Traktor is. The heart of the Denon MC3000+ mixers are some powerful analogue amplifiers, and they sound best when pushed just a tiny bit into the red - sounds become extra crisp and separated. (This isn't true of pure digital, which you should never run hot.) When Traktor and the Denon Master levels are both using their full headroom, you then set up the desk, amplifiers and speakers to obtain the volume you need in the room. Your mixer is not the place for these adjustments and by running it below maximum level you just waste headroom and resolution built into the Denons' amps, and throw away sound quality. A general rule is to run everything as hot as possible, then turn down at the last possible stage in your system chain, to reduce noise and maximise signal.

Then switch to Decks for the duration of your set, for an indication of levels - but if you're going to rely on VU metres alone, you may as well use auto-gain as they use the same basis - they just adjust trim to match the peaks. Kicks vary in terms of levels and perceived volume - a real kick drum will sound quieter than a synthesised, saturated one at the same levels. The perceived sound level is more important, which you compare by sliding your headphones between master and monitor out, pre-mix, which might also suggest EQ etc changes to better blend the two tracks. The VU meters in Decks mode are then adequate warning if you're pushing the digital too hard, and the answer is to trim down and if you need more volume in the room, turn up at the amplifiers.

[makar1]

The MC 3000's analogue output does not have any metering system as far as I can tell. All the VU meter information comes from Traktor, which is digital so must always be kept out of the red.

[technicaltitch]

The MC 3000's analogue output does not have any metering system as far as I can tell. All the VU meter information comes from Traktor, which is digital so must always be kept out of the red.

The VU meter switch has two settings - Deck and Master. When set to Deck, it monitors the Traktor levels on each deck. When set to Master, it monitors the analogue output from the amplifiers. Traktor is not aware of the levels coming out of the Denon. This is what sets the Denon controllers apart from most of the others under £1000 - it has beefy analogue circuitry after the digital stage which forms the audio heart of the device. The Master VU and Master level knob work when you use the controller as a soundcard with any audio software, and when you use the analogue channels without a computer attached. As I mention in the review, the MC3000 exceeds the documented specifications in several areas, most notably MIDI but perhaps also in details such as this.

[makar1]

Almost all controllers use the Master level knob to control the analogue output. It doesn't seem like the MC 3000 is any "more analogue" than an S4 Mk1.

What do you mean by the pitch fader resolution "exceeding Traktor"?

[technicaltitch]

I see what you mean, and that is a valid point, but disagree from experience of using both in venues. The S4 Mk1 amplifiers are essentially part of the D to A converters, digital 5V chips with an analogue output, so are very low power, high output impedance, and have all the energy sucked out of them when they are connected to a less than excellent sound desk. They are sensitive to driving hot, and I often had to choose between gutless sound or an impedance matcher and noise. The Denon by comparison engineers like an analogue device - you can drive it hot and it pushes signal into anything you throw it at. It also has full analogue circuitry to enable it to take analogue inputs while the laptop is unplugged.

On pitch fader exceeding Traktor, I write this because some controllers aren't fine enough to do long, precise mixes - as the fader moves slightly, the pitch setting jumps at the resolution of the controller. I love, and I mean love, to mix manually, even if it is often unnecessary these days, so when I buy something with a low resolution I just immediately have to sell it. Cheaper controllers and the first Vestax PDXs were expensive mistakes for this reason. With the Denon you can always get 0.01% increments, implying that the resolution of the physical device exceeds this (as otherwise you'd occasionally skip a 0.01% increment). As far as I remember the S4 pitch was equally precise - not everything was intended as a comparison, although as you no doubt detect, I didn't part terms with the S4 on the best of terms, due to the years of all-nighters fiddling with drivers, Windows settings and blue-screens.

[makar1]

Do you have any evidence to show that the Denon has a different output design than the S4? The old S4 also has a passthrough channel that works with a laptop unplugged; I wouldn't consider that anything like "full analogue circuitry".

Does the MC 3000 still have 0.01% precision at higher tempo ranges like 10/16%? I didn't part with the S4 too well either having had several RMAs - it's just an example of a common controller to compare with.

[technicaltitch]

The power output and impedance and sound quality are completely different. I guess you could take as some sort of evidence that the S4 runs off 5V 500mA whereas Denon requires 12V 2 amps, so about ten times the power. The S4 does nothing without a computer attached - all line inputs go A to D. But I'm really not trying to prove anything, or argue any scientific point - perhaps the D-A goes in to op-amps on both, but the op-amps on the Denon are much meatier, I don't know. You just need to plug the two into a mediocre desk or a set of monitors and the difference is obvious and undeniable. Or touch the jogs. Or set them up on a PC (I believe the S4 Mac drivers are better).

0.01% precision is only available at +/-8% as I mention in the review, but I never need to manually beatmatch at more. I also had an RMA with one, and when the replacement came back I sold it immediately and when I plugged in the Denon and it worked from the go, a weight lifted from my shoulders (metaphorically if not literally - the Denon packs a lot of steel!).