The fact is, that regular bedroom producers won't know to set it properly. I'll just stick with Mackie HR624s.
The fact is, that regular bedroom producers won't know to set it properly. I'll just stick with Mackie HR624s.
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I haven't worked in a production control room that didn't have a sub (although I have worked in live trucks and broadcast control rooms that didn't have them). And I just ended a 14 year long career as an audio engineer.All audio engineers I know and talk to frequently say that a sub causes their mixes to have strange anomalities in the bass.
Genelec has been pairing subs with their speakers at least since they introduced the 1029. It's common practice. Your assumption that it will "blow up low frequencies" is false. The fact is that as long as the system is properly calibrated (a rule that should apply to ANY monitoring system - sub or not) it WILL NOT cause you to de-emphasize low frequencies in your mix. But it will allow you to hear frequencies that exist below your monitor pair's frequency range. You will not hear these frequencies AT ALL without using a sub. This is what Steve is trying to tell you. Unless you're prepared to just roll off everything below 80hz, you need a way to monitor that content in genres like dance music (or indeed any production for which low frequencies are important - movie production for example).
I understand why you would make the assumption that using a sub is bad. Most people hook them up and turn them way too loud. But this is not a problem with the sub, it's a problem with the stupid user.
In fact, the opposite of your assumption is true. If you produce dance music without a sub, it's very likely that you will have problems with your mix at low frequencies, because you CAN'T HEAR what's going on down there. Might be too boomy, or it might be totally ball-less because there's nothing in the low end to push the bass bins. Ask the PA guy at your next club where they have the subs crossed over, then ask yourself how well your sub-less monitoring system reproduces frequencies below that point.
80 Hz you tell me.. is that the part of roll off, or just not showing any frequency?
Maybe this is all jibberish, but this seems like a nice studio monitor to me:
And Genelec... They're much too aggressive to my liking.Free-Field Frequency Response:
±1.5 dB, 49 Hz to 20 kHz
Lower cutoff frequency: –3 dB @ 45 Hz
Upper cutoff frequency: –3 dB @ 22 kHz
Sound Pressure Level at 1 meter,
–7.5 dBu into balanced input: 100 dB SPL @ 1m
Maximum peak SPL per pair: 115 dB SPL @ 1m
Maximum short term SPL on axis,
half space 80 Hz to 2.5 kHz: 106 dB SPL @ 1m
Residual noise (maximum gain, 600! source,
20 Hz-20 kHz bandwidth): < 8 dB SPL @ 1m
Can't be around them for longer than three or four hours tops. After this period I won't be able to hear properly, or can't make out frequencies properly.
Last edited by tekki; 07-17-2008 at 07:48 AM.
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Studio monitors aren't meant to sound "nice" though. They're meant to give a true reflection of the input, so that you can mix on them. Thus the old adage - "if you can get it sounding good on NS-10's, you can get it sounding good on anything."
Don't get me wrong Mackie 624's are great speakers - the most common amongst dance producers apparently and they claim to have "ruler flat frequency response down to 54hz".
I can't comment on other Genelecs but to my ears the 8040's sound almost too warm sounding, so i certainly wouldn't count them as aggressive. I've used others before and their predecessors weren't anywhere near as warm.
If you can't listen to something for more than 3 or 4 hours then it's generally time to either turn the volume down, or take a break anyway.
I hear ya CMCpress! Maybe I have written some words too harsh, we'll just blame the language barrier.
I have to agree on you with this one.
I usually play it a little softer, because I want sound quality not dB drag races.
Thing is, I can go on a full day with the Mackies while having the same volume/gain levels as other speakers. While others tend to give my ears the shits every 3 to 4 hours. :P
(Call me strange, lol)
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That's why God made volume knobs. The point is that you need to have the ability to assess the RELATIVE volume of the sub frequencies. Otherwise you will have the hugely pleasant surprise of mixing without any knowledge whatsoever of the bottom end, demoing it on your car stereo, and being laughably surprised when your windows break or you hear no bass at all. Your assumption that you'll "blow up" low frequencies is just weird. Those low frequencies aren't being played AT ALL without a sub. You're using a device that makes you aware of them. You can adjust the relative volume for your room; a subwoofer is not intrinsically a device that unnaturally magnifies a frequency that isn't already in the music.
Dont get me wrong a sub is nice to have still, but if people are going out and buying 2x speakers and a sub combo then they might want to think about investing the money they were going to spend on the sub and upgrade the quality and/or size of their monitors with nice big cones and get a sub later on down the track. A sub isnt 100% necessary but it is a nice thing to have.
Tekki does make a good point though. that all too often do people abuse the use of their subs :\ i suggest to anyone buying one that they do research on how to set it up properly
I think that's just as true of two-ways and room setup/monitor placement in general. I certainly agree that a lot of people who use subs think they're running a party instead of mixing properly (recording-wise, that is), but that's their problem. I don't blame the saw when the carpenter sucks.
I use an M-Audio BX10s, and only started with it fairly recently. It took getting used to. At first I thought I had to crank it and found that my mixing wasn't good and neither was my beatmatching when recording -- suddenly I couldn't hear headphones over the sub. It didn't take long to realize that I only need the sub to provide color on the bottom end of the spectrum, and now the subsonics are a presence more than a force. What's won me over, though, is that when I audition a mix on several different systems (my car being the make-or-break one simply because I know its properties so well), the bass frequencies throughout a mix seem much more even now, and I'm less often surprised by either a sudden slam of new bass or a lack of punch. But you definitely have to do some research and take some time and mess around to dial in any new system, or changes to your current system.
Isn't that also because you are now familiar with the characteristics of your monitors & sub?
Not just have it rigged up well?
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