USA mixers suck - we need a "standard" tool - Page 2
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  1. #11
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_bastet View Post
    Necrobump. Jesus. Had Fatman Skank even posted since this thread?
    He posted later that day about how the DJR-400 sounded good and the A&H mixers were better than average for non-rotaries...

    I apparently missed the origianl thread...which is good. I probably would have gotten in trouble...because I'm a weirdo who uses a rotary because he likes working that way but sees zero problems with the DJMs in terms of quality.

    That being said, I've never heard any DJ mixer in a context where I can really decide on subtle sound quality issues. I also believe the vast majority of people haven't either...

  2. #12
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    He posted later that day about how the DJR-400 sounded good and the A&H mixers were better than average for non-rotaries...

    I apparently missed the origianl thread...which is good. I probably would have gotten in trouble...because I'm a weirdo who uses a rotary because he likes working that way but sees zero problems with the DJMs in terms of quality.

    That being said, I've never heard any DJ mixer in a context where I can really decide on subtle sound quality issues. I also believe the vast majority of people haven't either...
    I think a lot of people confuse warmth and clarity. The natural distortion created by analog circuitry can make something sound a little more natural (repetitive sounds are slightly different, sometimes barely noticable) which creates a sound that they are more accustomed to hearing as opposed to clarity which is a pure reproduction of sound. In the case of electronic.

    The slight difference is really a matter of personal preference and doesn't really mean one sounds better than the other.
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  3. #13
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Either way, not something you are gonna notice unless you are in a studio atmosphere. And either is something the average (90%+ of) listener would notice.
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  4. #14
    Tech Guru happydan's Avatar
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    This is why I roll my eyes when people yack on about demanding lossless music over 320kbps MP3s. You're literally never going to be in a situation where:
    a) you can hear a difference;
    and;
    b) anyone gives a shit.
    A&H Xone:62 | 2 x NI Kontrol X1 MK2 | 2 x 1210s | TSP2 | Audio 10 | Apple Macbook Pro 13 inch | Sennheiser HD7 DJ | Ableton Push
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  5. #15
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happydan View Post
    This is why I roll my eyes when people yack on about demanding lossless music over 320kbps MP3s. You're literally never going to be in a situation where:
    a) you can hear a difference;
    and;
    b) anyone gives a shit.
    Best thing to do with someone like that:

    Before you go on, tell em how you only buy lossless because it's so uber awesome. After your set, approach em and be like, did ya hear how clear it was?

    Then break their heart when you tell them they were all wav's and mp3's.
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  6. #16
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happydan View Post
    This is why I roll my eyes when people yack on about demanding lossless music over 320kbps MP3s. You're literally never going to be in a situation where:
    a) you can hear a difference;
    and;
    b) anyone gives a shit.
    Disagree.

    The differences between high end mixers...other than voicing differences...they're pretty subtle. Especially with modern digital stuff.

    And the words people use to describe them (warm, punchy, wooly, etc.) don't really have precise definitions. If you have a preference, it's okay to say you just prefer something without a pseudo-objective reason why. If, otoh, you want something "warmer", turn the bass up half a dB.

    MP3 compression artifacts, OTOH, aren't that subtle. They're clear as day on $15 earbuds and normal computer speakers...IF AND ONLY IF you actually know what they are.

    That being said, the vast majority of people I've heard complaining about it don't know what they're talking about. It has almost nothing to do with bass, volume, the quality of the sound system, etc.. I hear it most easily in hi-hats, some snares, and reverb tails. There is also a change in stereo imaging, but moving a nearfield speaker 6" can make a bigger difference than that. Turning it definitely does.

    It doesn't bother me, but I do hear it. And so does anyone else who's learned what it is. It doesn't take golden ears or even particularly good ears.

    Ozone and a few other all in one mastering apps/plugins can show you a preview of exactly what is missing, and there are free trials if you want to experience it yourself.


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  7. #17
    Tech Guru happydan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    Disagree.

    The differences between high end mixers...other than voicing differences...they're pretty subtle. Especially with modern digital stuff.

    And the words people use to describe them (warm, punchy, wooly, etc.) don't really have precise definitions. If you have a preference, it's okay to say you just prefer something without a pseudo-objective reason why. If, otoh, you want something "warmer", turn the bass up half a dB.

    MP3 compression artifacts, OTOH, aren't that subtle. They're clear as day on $15 earbuds and normal computer speakers...IF AND ONLY IF you actually know what they are.

    That being said, the vast majority of people I've heard complaining about it don't know what they're talking about. It has almost nothing to do with bass, volume, the quality of the sound system, etc.. I hear it most easily in hi-hats, some snares, and reverb tails. There is also a change in stereo imaging, but moving a nearfield speaker 6" can make a bigger difference than that. Turning it definitely does.

    It doesn't bother me, but I do hear it. And so does anyone else who's learned what it is. It doesn't take golden ears or even particularly good ears.

    Ozone and a few other all in one mastering apps/plugins can show you a preview of exactly what is missing, and there are free trials if you want to experience it yourself.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You're telling me that you think people playing tunes in a club/bedroom/hall/podcast will be able to tell the difference between 320 MP3s and FLAC? There's no DJ scenario where I imagine this is true. Sure, if you're sat naked in the centre of an acoustically treated room with an ideally set up sound system, they might. But that's not what people claim. They claim you absolutely have to have WAV/FLAC or your music will sound shit to the whole world.

    I say stop wasting your time seeking out lossless when the only person who will ever know that's what you're playing is you. Does TIDAL even host DJ mixes?
    A&H Xone:62 | 2 x NI Kontrol X1 MK2 | 2 x 1210s | TSP2 | Audio 10 | Apple Macbook Pro 13 inch | Sennheiser HD7 DJ | Ableton Push
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  8. #18
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by happydan View Post
    You're telling me that you think people playing tunes in a club/bedroom/hall/podcast will be able to tell the difference between 320 MP3s and FLAC? There's no DJ scenario where I imagine this is true. Sure, if you're sat naked in the centre of an acoustically treated room with an ideally set up sound system, they might. But that's not what people claim. They claim you absolutely have to have WAV/FLAC or your music will sound shit to the whole world.

    I say stop wasting your time seeking out lossless when the only person who will ever know that's what you're playing is you. Does TIDAL even host DJ mixes?
    Nope. I can't hear them in clubs because the sound is pretty universally too bad and too loud. Even if that weren't the case, the earplugs I wear mask it. If David Mancuso were still doing his loft parties, you could easily hear it there. And there are a few audiophile/hi-fi clubs sprouting up (Sonos Studio, Brilliant Corners, etc.), and you absolutely could hear it there. But, it doesn't require Klipschorns or B&W...it just requires the sound to be quiet enough that you don't need earplugs to avoid damage.

    There's also zero effort involved in getting lossless files. Everywhere I shop, you can just select to get a wav or aiff instead of mp3. Set it as the default and it literally takes zero extra investment, apart from a few cents per song, which is still an order of magnatude cheaper than vinyl. And, if it's down to "I need this unreleased song I found on soundcloud" and "I need lossless", the song obviously wins.

    It's also not "good" vs. "shit", it's "good" vs. "specific problems". Anyone who claims it's total shit is lying. And, like I said, it doesn't bother me to listen to or stream compressed audio. But I've blind ABX'd them significantly better than random far too many times to give any weight to anyone who says there's no difference, including on $15 earbuds, though apple earbuds specifically are too crap.

    The way this came up, ITT, was that someone else mentioned it compared to the difference between high end mixers. If you're listening on DJ cans or KRKs in a normal bedroom DJ context, I seriously doubt anyone could hear the difference between a NXS2 and an ARS-4100. What they're hearing is almost always going to be because they don't know how to level-match them or don't understand how to do an ABX test in the first place. And both of those will impact the results more than the choice of DJ mixer.

    As for streaming and distributing mixes....yes, I give out mp3s just like everyone else. But that means that songs that started as mp3s were compressed, altered, recorded, and then compressed again, and then possibly transcoded, and then altered again since every streaming service at least does loudness matching these days. It makes it even more apparent.

    My argument is not what you think it is. It's simple...there is clearly a difference (as long as there's sonic information in the song that would be affected), lossless/uncompressed is inarguably not worse, and there is absolutely no benefit to mp3 unless drive space or bandwidth are at a particularly high premium for you.

    And, while some studies have shown that young people are more used to bad sound (earbuds, overdriven phone speakers, etc.), when presented with a blind, level-matched comparison....they pretty much universally prefer good sound (even to fairly subtle degrees) even if they can't tell you exactly why.

    Music is literally magic. It's about transferring the emotions you have in your head to other people through a physical act. And the quality you present is a very small but not insignificant part of that. Better music wins over better quality music, always. But in this day & age, there's no reason you can't have both.

    In the end, you do you. But if you're offering things for streaming, you don't sound as good as you could....just to save a few dollars a month.
    Last edited by mostapha; 01-27-2018 at 11:05 AM.

  9. #19
    Tech Guru djproben's Avatar
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    I don't think the problem is finding or seeking out lossless. They're available these days for most things. I think the issue is that many of us have already invested heavily in thousands of mp3s that have already been purchased, tagged, analyzed, organized, and put into playlists and we don't see it being worth the money, time, and energy necessary to upgrade from an already excellent format to a flawless one. And depending on your DJ software, FLAC and ALAC can still be a pain to work with. And it's hard to manage a collection that has a mixture of formats. (iTunes will ignore FLAC files for example. Tagging is an issue on some. I don't think Traktor will read ALAC).

    Yes a trained ear can hear the difference if they're looking for specific artifacts, but if that's what you're doing at a dance club, rethink your priorities. And I've occasionally been able to pick it out in an ABX too but it generally requires repeated listening to a snippet under quiet circumstances (at least until a really obvious artifact shows up, which is rare). It's not just clubs or DJing - I stream lossy formats regularly at home with decent equipment and at small house parties all the time and I can probably count on one hand the times I've actually noticed any such artifacts.

    These days I buy most of my digital tunes via bandcamp, which offers several formats including lossless ones; I usually download the FLAC, and I record my vinyl into ALAC, but my large iTunes library is nearly all mp3 and so far I haven't felt the need to spend the energy replacing, retagging, and reorganizing all the 320kbps mp3s in my DJ folders. I suppose if I ever got a gig at one of those audiophile clubs it would be worth the effort, but the truth is I would rather play vinyl in those environments anyway.
    "Art is what you can get away with." - Marshall McLuhan

  10. #20
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    And that makes sense. I haven't gone back and upgraded all of my mp3s. Like I said, it doesn't bother me. That being said, if you actually know what to listen for, it's pretty quick.

    The only times it bothers me is when I hear a hi-hat line turn into a cloud of birds, which is mostly in the car over streaming. And it doesn't bother me often.

    I just don't know why people would buy mp3 these days.

    Also, everything works with aiff. Which also holds metadata (unlike wav). As far as I'm concerned, it's the perfect format.

    As for vinyl in those places....I won't argue that vinyl sounds bad. But it is also technically inferior, it just covers up its flaws with a hiss that people like for some reason.

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