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  1. #101
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    https://www.facebook.com/DenonDJOffi...type=3&theater

    New SC5000 firmware incoming, so it seems.

    On de DenonDJ forum there's talk about quantized loops and on Facebook there's talk about Traktor integration (HID, collection). I hope they'll throw in some bugfixes too.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by sevenkami View Post
    https://www.facebook.com/DenonDJOffi...type=3&theater

    New SC5000 firmware incoming, so it seems.

    On de DenonDJ forum there's talk about quantized loops and on Facebook there's talk about Traktor integration (HID, collection). I hope they'll throw in some bugfixes too.
    It's not everything, but it's an important first step.

    You can now set cue and hot cues immediately. Works fine now with unanalyzed tracks. No excruciating wait.

    Databases now fully Link, though sometimes not all the tracks show up in a folder across linked decks on first try. You occasionally have to try the folder a second time to get all tracks to come up. We're talking just one or two tracks, though. Pioneers sometimes say entire folders of mine are empty even on the deck the drive is connected to.

    Instant doubles.

    There is a little bug with momentary-mode hot cues where it stays where you release, but the devs know about this and a fix is under way. It does not affect trigger-mode hot cues.

    While NTFS read-only mode is still stated on the Denon site and the manual, it's still not implemented whereas it is on the Gemini. Fat32 is still recommended, though ExFat will apparently also work. Too bad Pioneer doesn't support the latter as ExFat is apparently a little more robust and might make a worthy single drive format for DJs.

    The Rekordbox conversion thing on the players from the last update seems to only read cue points and loops from KUVO-era Rekordbox, and this is still the case with v1.2. With old versions of Rekordbox, all you'll get is the playlists converted.

    The Engine Prime software added Traktor database import.

    Hopefully some additional settings/options will be added in the next update for the players, along with returning to the original pitch resolution and improving the sound quality.

    It certainly now holds its own, in my opinion, as a possible install unit with the CDJ2000NXS2, at least if you compare both with key lock/master tempo On at negative pitches. Much below 6%, and the Denon clearly has the better sound with key lock/master tempo On. At positive pitches or with key lock/master tempo Off, the Pioneer has the superior sound, while you get two decks in one on the Denon. So on the whole, I guess for most people right now even without the Denon's sound improved it'd be a toss up in terms of value. For those who could care less about how great the Pioneers sound with master tempo off, the Denon is now probably the better value.

    If we want to get anal about the finer details of manual mixing, though, comparing the Pioneer's jog bend deadzone to the Denon's asymmetric pitch bend (forward is twice as sensitive as rearward), both are about as not-quite-intuitive compared to the Hanpin and Gemini players or vinyl. I don't expect that to be a problem on the Denon for long. They've already listened quite a bit on not only the SC5000 but on the X1800 mixer. Can you believe they added the ability to change which side the cue & master are with split cue? That alone is worth the price of admission for me and the wait to add various features or fix some oversights on the Prime system.
    Last edited by Reticuli; 06-25-2018 at 11:04 PM.

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    It's not everything, but it's an important first step.

    You can now set cue and hot cues immediately. Works fine now with unanalyzed tracks. No excruciating wait.

    Databases now fully Link, though sometimes not all the tracks show up in a folder across linked decks on first try. You occasionally have to try the folder a second time to get all tracks to come up. We're talking just one or two tracks, though. Pioneers sometimes say entire folders of mine are empty even on the deck the drive is connected to.

    Instant doubles.

    There is a little bug with momentary-mode hot cues where it stays where you release, but the devs know about this and a fix is under way. It does not affect trigger-mode hot cues.

    While NTFS read-only mode is still stated on the Denon site and the manual, it's still not implemented whereas it is on the Gemini. Fat32 is still recommended, though ExFat will apparently also work. Too bad Pioneer doesn't support the latter as ExFat is apparently a little more robust and might make a worthy single drive format for DJs.

    The Rekordbox conversion thing on the players from the last update seems to only read cue points and loops from KUVO-era Rekordbox, and this is still the case with v1.2. With old versions of Rekordbox, all you'll get is the playlists converted.

    The Engine Prime software added Traktor database import.

    Hopefully some additional settings/options will be added in the next update for the players, along with returning to the original pitch resolution and improving the sound quality.

    It certainly now holds its own, in my opinion, as a possible install unit with the CDJ2000NXS2, at least if you compare both with key lock/master tempo On at negative pitches. Much below 6%, and the Denon clearly has the better sound with key lock/master tempo On. At positive pitches or with key lock/master tempo Off, the Pioneer has the superior sound, while you get two decks in one on the Denon. So on the whole, I guess for most people right now even without the Denon's sound improved it'd be a toss up in terms of value. For those who could care less about how great the Pioneers sound with master tempo off, the Denon is now probably the better value.

    If we want to get anal about the finer details of manual mixing, though, comparing the Pioneer's jog bend deadzone to the Denon's asymmetric pitch bend (forward is twice as sensitive as rearward), both are about as not-quite-intuitive compared to the Hanpin and Gemini players or vinyl. I don't expect that to be a problem on the Denon for long. They've already listened quite a bit on not only the SC5000 but on the X1800 mixer. Can you believe they added the ability to change which side the cue & master are with split cue? That alone is worth the price of admission for me and the wait to add various features or fix some oversights on the Prime system.
    Reticuli we understand ... it's the 50000th in Reddit Youtube Facebook DJ TechTool you say about key lock, just one question why you just don't buy the CDJ 2000 Nexus 2 if it's better with digital output for bit perfect ? i'm 100% with you about all this thing, but i'm certainly sure that Denon will not correct until the next generation of player with Engine Prime like SC5000 MK2 ! like a say at this stage even with a high end sound system people don't care and don't make a difference, lot of DJ don't focus on high quality audio ! Btw in my opinion the SC5000 sound is pretty good with lossless files and good mastering, i make a test with my Xone DB4 and one SC5000 and one CDJ 2000 Nexus 2 with the same files in lossless with a d&b audiotechnik outdoor i found no big difference, if the DJ play low quality files or fake lossless/MP3 320 files yes the sound are worse
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  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellor01 View Post
    Reticuli we understand ... it's the 50000th in Reddit Youtube Facebook DJ TechTool you say about key lock, just one question why you just don't buy the CDJ 2000 Nexus 2 if it's better with digital output for bit perfect ? i'm 100% with you about all this thing, but i'm certainly sure that Denon will not correct until the next generation of player with Engine Prime like SC5000 MK2 ! like a say at this stage even with a high end sound system people don't care and don't make a difference, lot of DJ don't focus on high quality audio ! Btw in my opinion the SC5000 sound is pretty good with lossless files and good mastering, i make a test with my Xone DB4 and one SC5000 and one CDJ 2000 Nexus 2 with the same files in lossless with a d&b audiotechnik outdoor i found no big difference, if the DJ play low quality files or fake lossless/MP3 320 files yes the sound are worse
    Get your hearing checked. I have four Pioneer CDJs. It's not just with the digital output. The digital output is how you verify that the Pioneers are bit perfect at zero pitch and simply sample rate conversion plus antialiasing filter with key lock/master tempo off and away from zero. People have already complained on the Denon forum about the obvious roll off on the top-end even before tests had been run to verify this. The issue of the overall sound being processed and altered on the SC5000 independent of the high frequency roll off is probably more subtle to a lot of ears, but side by side it is definitely there. There is absolutely zero reason why Elastique v3 cannot be disabled when keylock on the SC5000 is disabled. It's not a hardware limitation. Torq 2 and Deckadance 2 both use Elastique and this can be totally shut off on them, same as Traktor and VDJ's own proprietary key correction algorithms. I also don't think it's a coincidence that some of Denon's original "change your rider" big name DJs have already gone back to the Pioneers.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    Get your hearing checked. I have four Pioneer CDJs. It's not just with the digital output. The digital output is how you verify that the Pioneers are bit perfect at zero pitch and simply sample rate conversion plus antialiasing filter with key lock/master tempo off and away from zero. People have already complained on the Denon forum about the obvious roll off on the top-end even before tests had been run to verify this. The issue of the overall sound being processed and altered on the SC5000 independent of the high frequency roll off is probably more subtle to a lot of ears, but side by side it is definitely there. There is absolutely zero reason why Elastique v3 cannot be disabled when keylock on the SC5000 is disabled. It's not a hardware limitation. Torq 2 and Deckadance 2 both use Elastique and this can be totally shut off on them, same as Traktor and VDJ's own proprietary key correction algorithms. I also don't think it's a coincidence that some of Denon's original "change your rider" big name DJs have already gone back to the Pioneers.
    My hears are just fine thank you for worrying, yeah but what model of CDJ mate ? because the CDJ2000 Nexus and old CDJ sound like shit for me same thing for the DJM 900, The Nexus 2 are a lot better !

    People have already complained on the Denon forum about the obvious roll off on the top-end even before tests had been run to verify this
    Agree but let's be honest denon is not going to fix that... in their website we have that : The audio outputs are 24-bit/96kHz for the very highest sound quality, and of course the SC5000 Prime plays all uncompressed audio formats, including FLAC, ALAC and WAV. you seriously think they'll admit that the sound is less good than their competitor Pioneer ?

    Well about big name DJ it's not a big loss especially in EDM & commercial music, Denon need to target real DJ like Carl Cox Laurent Garnier Seth Troxler Nina Kraviz & many more ! If they want it to work they need to sponsor all the clubs
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellor01 View Post
    My hears are just fine thank you for worrying, yeah but what model of CDJ mate ? because the CDJ2000 Nexus and old CDJ sound like shit for me same thing for the DJM 900, The Nexus 2 are a lot better !



    Agree but let's be honest denon is not going to fix that... in their website we have that : The audio outputs are 24-bit/96kHz for the very highest sound quality, and of course the SC5000 Prime plays all uncompressed audio formats, including FLAC, ALAC and WAV. you seriously think they'll admit that the sound is less good than their competitor Pioneer ?

    Well about big name DJ it's not a big loss especially in EDM & commercial music, Denon need to target real DJ like Carl Cox Laurent Garnier Seth Troxler Nina Kraviz & many more ! If they want it to work they need to sponsor all the clubs
    "The audio outputs are 24-bit/96kHz" All that tells you is what the specs are for them, particularly the digital outputs and to a lesser extent the internal sound cards if they ever get them functioning for software. Some gear doesn't support 96khz digital inputs. As for the "very highest sound quality", they'll just have to suck that up I guess. I and others have already demonstrated that's bunk. They only beat Pioneer on the sound aspect at negative pitches with keylock on. They previously had the best pitch resolution, and now they're worse than Pioneer. Their site says they do NTFS read-only, but they don't. I don't see any reason why it can't change. They're saying plenty of other stuff that's B.S. and fixing other problems. They've gotten worse in some areas since release and better in others. They're also not going to be able to sponsor many top clubs with stuff like Funktion One, let alone get Tony Andrews to do demonstrations with the SC5000 (which he has with the CDJ2000), until they fix the processing issues on it. I mean, it's like 3dB down already at 14khz. Unacceptable. If Tiesto has already dropped them after his year ran out (which he appears to have), older, more real, or more serious (hey, trance can get serious!) DJs aren't going to give them the time of day. I am very hopeful for InMusic with these. Pioneer is not receptive to suggestions at all. If Pioneer already had an option to turn off that jog bend deadzone and had a 32% pitch range with 0.1 increments, I wouldn't have given the SC5000 the time of day.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    "They're also not going to be able to sponsor many top clubs with stuff like Funktion One, let alone get Tony Andrews to do demonstrations with the SC5000 (which he has with the CDJ2000), until they fix the processing issues on it. I mean, it's like 3dB down already at 14khz. Unacceptable. If Tiesto has already dropped them after his year ran out (which he appears to have), older, more real, or more serious (hey, trance can get serious!) DJs aren't going to give them the time of day. I am very hopeful for InMusic with these. Pioneer is not receptive to suggestions at all. If Pioneer already had an option to turn off that jog bend deadzone and had a 32% pitch range with 0.1 increments, I wouldn't have given the SC5000 the time of day.



    More reason for me to worry that Denon is not responding on the forum about the high frequencie filter and Denon staff don't said it's gonna be correct in the future firmware !
    I will try to revive the threads

    Weird you focus a lot for the pitch range and bend deadzone for pioneer, what genre do you playing ? because for me i never go over 8% for the pitch range !
    (La Chinerie Festival X L'Appart Music )
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  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellor01 View Post
    More reason for me to worry that Denon is not responding on the forum about the high frequencie filter and Denon staff don't said it's gonna be correct in the future firmware !
    I will try to revive the threads

    Weird you focus a lot for the pitch range and bend deadzone for pioneer, what genre do you playing ? because for me i never go over 8% for the pitch range !
    I do a lot of multigenre stuff, say, going from breakbeat to drum & bass or from downtempo dubstep to glitch hop and techno. So I need a pitch range over 16% that has 0.1 pitch resolution. Having 0.5 increments at 100% is not very useful for mixing/blending purposes without a great deal of babysitting the constant drift.

    Like the SC5000's weird asymmetric jog bend sensitivity, the Pioneer jog bend deadzone is an issue of manual mixing intuitiveness. Pioneer is the only company to implement a jog deadzone and it's characterized by it ignoring slow jog bend rotations until you go past a certain speed threshold. You will see even big name DJs doing slow bends and noticing it not doing anything, so they have to repeat it a couple times until it does something. It's particularly a nightmare with disco and funk, because the music requires babysitting the blend already. Pioneer justifies this as a way of preventing accidental bending, which is just completely totally idiotic, in my opinion. If you accidentally bump it in one direction, you can intentionally bump it back in the other to correct it. I've also never seen any CDJ rotate on its own from sitting on a subwoofer, and all of them actually have tension adjustment anyway, the 900s internally and the 1000/2000 as a knob on top.

    Basically what I'm looking for in a digital DJ player is analog-like responsiveness. If I move the pitch fader the smallest amount, it should actually register a change, not ignore it because the increments the player sees are too coarse at that pitch range. I don't want to have to stare at the screen and see if the digit has changed or if I need to move the slider more. A similar thing happens with the jog bend deadzone. I don't want to wonder if my jog bend input did anything or not because it may not have been fast enough a rotation. Often times on Pioneers you think you've done something and it's like a placebo effect, you've done nothing but you think maybe you've changed it when you haven't. When you have fine increments and useful available pitch ranges combined with totally responsive variable bend ability that gives you tiny changes with tiny inputs, you just mix and you're not using your eyes or analytical brain and it becomes very intuitive & automatic. I love when it becomes intuitive. So I'm after that, while hating to bother with a laptop.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tellor01 View Post
    My hears are just fine thank you for worrying, yeah but what model of CDJ mate ? because the CDJ2000 Nexus and old CDJ sound like shit for me same thing for the DJM 900, The Nexus 2 are a lot better !
    Sorry I missed that part. I have four CDJ-900s. They have excellent Wolfson DACs that are the same as the CDJ-1000mk3 for the analog outs, and their digital outs are bit perfect at zero pitch and minimally processed away from zero with master tempo off. In other words, the CDJs can't be any less processed than they already are with master tempo off. At positive pitch with master tempo on, the processing wizardly involved on them is fine. The math for that is much easier than negative pitch with keylock and the processing power needed less intense to keep from getting artifacts. You're not going to hear much difference between those and the CDJ-2000NXS2 over a digital output until you pitch into the negative with master tempo on, and in that state, the Denon SC5000 is obviously on another level entirely with Elastique v3.

    As for the improvement of the AKMs on the NXS2 over the older models, they sound to me like they have a little less character on the NXS2 than on the older CDJ models, but I actually quite like the older models' analog outs (speaking generally and, say, comparing with master tempo off), though I don't use the analog outs very often.

    From using Pioneers, including the 2000s, I'm pretty accustomed to pitching back to zero or staying away from a lot of negative pitch with keylock on. I tend to favor positive pitch. It is certainly nice not to have to worry too much about that on the Denons. However, admittedly some of the "it doesn't change its sound that much regardless of where you put the SC5000 pitch fader with keylock" spiel is partly a result of the fact the sound is already highly processed and slightly degraded both in overall fidelity as well as high frequency extension on the SC5000 by default even at zero pitch. So while the Pioneer starts out as a perfect 10 at zero pitch, the Denon is at like an 8 or 9, in my opinion, before you even do anything crazy. Negative pitch with master tempo activated on the CDJ2000NXS2 is obviously going to be more noticeable on the CDJs both because it's got better baseline processing (totally transparent, actually) and its number crunching power & algorithm are more modest.

    Yeah, you'd have to bump those threads or ask Denon for their opinion on this. I'm probably the last person that responded on those threads regarding the aggressive low-pass filtering and the lack of transparency at zero pitch. It's often not possible to post again or even edit a post on that forum until someone else has participated.

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