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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    Serious question...why not use software? If it easily does everything you want.


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    I do occasionally, and have more frequently done before. All that visual and automation stuff is life draining and bores me, and the hassle of messing around with software in a live situation and paring it down to act like a bare bones player is more trouble than it's worth usually, I find. The only times I use software anymore is either at home with an already setup system to simulate bare bones players and where I have instant access to all my music and don't have to worry about configuring everything (it already is), or if I'm doing some event where I have to do requests. The requests things are special and annoying, so if I'm putting up with doing a night of requests, I just bring a laptop and all-in-one controller. I don't do that often. For a while I was dealing with all the software stuff live after I went off to grad school and couldn't bring my vinyl, and I just enjoyed it less and less the more I did it. The system at my desktop, by the way, that's already setup and ready, I don't even tend to use it as much as my Denon and Pioneer systems with USB flash drives.

  2. #82
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    Got X3 SC5000 and X1800 in the house. Initially very impressed with SC5000. Less so with use, but most of it can be improved in firmware. On the SC5000s, you can't set a cue or hot cue until a track is analyzed, the forward jog bend is twice the sensitivity as the rearward (which is about right in sensitivity compared to forward), and they actually made the pitch increments several times worse on the latest firmware. Jog tension sucks, though I usually keep every jog as loose as possible anyway so not as big a deal for me. Touch is prone to static electricity and grounding problems. Do we need to DJ with a ground strap on our wrists? I guess just be very careful and turn off vinyl mode when you first plug your headphones in. Sound quality with keylock off or pitch at zero is definitely not bit perfect like on Pioneers. Sounds sort of like Torq 2 to me. Can't use them digitally with the PPD9000 since there's no SPDIF output sample rate selection on the SC5000. On a positive note, if you're not using the database/pre-analysis, the Link works fine if perhaps a bit slow, and keylock is very good. The X1800 is AMAZING, though. They nailed the mixer.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    Got X3 SC5000 and X1800 in the house. Initially very impressed with SC5000. Less so with use, but most of it can be improved in firmware. On the SC5000s, you can't set a cue or hot cue until a track is analyzed, the forward jog bend is twice the sensitivity as the rearward (which is about right in sensitivity compared to forward), and they actually made the pitch increments several times worse on the latest firmware. Jog tension sucks, though I usually keep every jog as loose as possible anyway so not as big a deal for me. Touch is prone to static electricity and grounding problems. Do we need to DJ with a ground strap on our wrists? I guess just be very careful and turn off vinyl mode when you first plug your headphones in. Sound quality with keylock off or pitch at zero is definitely not bit perfect like on Pioneers. Sounds sort of like Torq 2 to me. Can't use them digitally with the PPD9000 since there's no SPDIF output sample rate selection on the SC5000. On a positive note, if you're not using the database/pre-analysis, the Link works fine if perhaps a bit slow, and keylock is very good. The X1800 is AMAZING, though. They nailed the mixer.
    Seriously dude... lot of thing are correct but i don't agree with all :
    First :
    On the SC5000s, you can't set a cue or hot cue until a track is analyzed
    Agree this shit is annoying with other DJ but analyse you're files with Engine no ? more simple ? and denon said the future firmware correct this !

    the forward jog bend is twice the sensitivity as the rearward (which is about right in sensitivity compared to forward)
    Don't see the difference with a CDJ2000Nexus 2 if you can spin vinyl, SC5000 are fucking easy and the jog are perfect

    and they actually made the pitch increments several times worse on the latest firmware
    Ok i'm agree with this but same thing it's don't bother me personnaly, it's need to be improve in a future firmware !

    Touch is prone to static electricity and grounding problems.
    Mate i don't have this problem so check maybe the quality of the power line ?

    Sound quality with keylock off or pitch at zero is definitely not bit perfect like on Pioneers
    What speaker do you have ? Because the sound are pretty good with my Dynaudio BM12 and my Xone DB4, you read that on a denon forum right ?


    Can't use them digitally with the PPD9000 since there's no SPDIF output sample rate selection on the SC5000
    What the point to use them with a cheap outdated numark mixers ? use analog output no ? the dac are lot lot lot better than this mixers
    (La Chinerie Festival ,L'Appart Music )
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  4. #84
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    If I use Engine Prime to analyze the files, my 70,000+ track library drive will not link and share the database between the units like on Pioneer. The Link on the Denons is deficient in that respect still. So I am left not analyzing it, which means I must wait for each track to be analyzed on load before I can set a cue.

    I like that the Denon doesn't have jog bend deadzone, but the forward bend is twice the sensitivity of the rearward. Very awkward.

    I have the Denon X1800, X1700, Rane MP2015, Mackie D4... among other mixers. My speakers are ribbon-tweeter tops and Danley Labhorn subs. You don't even need these, though, to hear the difference. Compare a Pioneer at zero pitch with the same track on the Denon at zero pitch. You can just use headphones. The Pioneer is exactly the digital data in the music file fed to the mixer over the SPDIF. I have tested that. The Denon sounds more like the track's coming out of Torq 2.0, which literally had the worst sound of all the DJ software when comparing at zero pitch (master tempo). Free Mixxx in its earliest iterations had better sound at zero pitch than Torq 2.0. Pioneer's default, base DSP processing on the CDJs is 100% transparent. The Denon is substantially colored sounding.

    The PPD9000 has extraordinarily good sound and uses similar Texas Instruments dedicated input sample rate converters as the MP2015, though an earlier generation. It bests the vast majority of exotic analog mixers. It's also conveniently shaped in 19" rack so I could put three players above it within easy reach. Yes, the analog out is the only option from the SC5000 for the PPD9000, but I'm not sure what you mean by the mixer's DAC having anything to do with getting the SC5000 signal digitally into it. You're actually lucky that the DB4 accepts 96khz inputs, because that mixer is only a 48khz DSP and DAC design.

    I believe everything else besides the tension thing I don't care about and the grounding/static electricity stuff can be resolved in the firmware/software side of the players, though. So that is good. But these are a lot of shortfalls and quirks. If it wasn't for Pioneer's jog bend deadzone and useless Wide pitch range increments of 0.5 and nothing between 16 and Wide, I wouldn't be willing to put up with the Denons to wait and see what happens with the SC5000 firmware. The Link, sound, and immediate usability of the Pioneers are all way ahead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellor01 View Post
    Seriously dude... lot of thing are correct but i don't agree with all :
    First :
    Agree this shit is annoying with other DJ but analyse you're files with Engine no ? more simple ? and denon said the future firmware correct this !



    Don't see the difference with a CDJ2000Nexus 2 if you can spin vinyl, SC5000 are fucking easy and the jog are perfect


    Ok i'm agree with this but same thing it's don't bother me personnaly, it's need to be improve in a future firmware !



    Mate i don't have this problem so check maybe the quality of the power line ?



    What speaker do you have ? Because the sound are pretty good with my Dynaudio BM12 and my Xone DB4, you read that on a denon forum right ?




    What the point to use them with a cheap outdated numark mixers ? use analog output no ? the dac are lot lot lot better than this mixers
    Last edited by Reticuli; 05-03-2018 at 04:12 PM.

  5. #85
    Tech Guru SlayForMoney's Avatar
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    You don't need to analyze all 70k of files. Deselect "analyze at import" and then only analyze files that are in crates/playlists. You get a sub-2.4GB library data file and yet the whole collection is searchable. Thanks to players analyzing the songs themselves, even if you need and load a song that's not in a crate/playlist you will get waveform/key/metadata in 20-30sec.

    Denon have superior keylock (Elastique V3) compared to any other media player so I guess you need to chose what's more important to you: having better sound a 0% pitch or at any other value. I still disable Traktor keylock if/when I pull the song tempo to 0% if I want it to sound proper.

    Grounding/static issue is a side-effect of the touch sensitive tehnology in general, not the player itself. If you look around controller parts of various forums you will find shitload of posts users having problems with their controller jogwheels. Still better feelin then the pressure sensitive, mechanical Pioneer jogwheels.

    Supposedly the players have some function to adjust themselves but yes, a manual adjust would be welcomed.
    Last edited by SlayForMoney; 04-26-2018 at 06:06 AM.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by SlayForMoney View Post
    You don't need to analyze all 70k of files. Deselect "analyze at import" and then only analyze files that are in crates/playlists. You get a sub-2.4GB library data file and yet the whole collection is searchable. Thanks to players analyzing the songs themselves, even if you need and load a song that's not in a crate/playlist you will get waveform/key/metadata in 20-30sec.

    Denon have superior keylock (Elastique V3) compared to any other media player so I guess you need to chose what's more important to you: having better sound a 0% pitch or at any other value. I still disable Traktor keylock if/when I pull the song tempo to 0% if I want it to sound proper.

    Grounding/static issue is a side-effect of the touch sensitive technology in general, not the player itself. If you look around controller parts of various forums you will find shitload of posts users having problems with their controller jogwheels. Still better feelin then the pressure sensitive, mechanical Pioneer jogwheels.

    Supposedly the players have some function to adjust themselves but yes, a manual adjust would be welcomed.
    A 20-30 second delay before setting the cue is not acceptable. No one in their right mind who knows DJing would say it is. You're not explicitly saying that, but you're kinda dancing around the issue like it's no big deal.

    That's an interesting technique. I have no playlists or crates. Is there a way to have Engine Prime simply create a database of an entire pre-existing drive so files can be searched for at least (better than nothing), even if I must wait 20-30 seconds for each track to analyze on load?

    I've Got 12 Hanpin players, 9 Hanpin controllers, a Numark controller, and four of the Gemini MDJ-1000s besides the Denons and the Pioneers and vinyl TTs and mixers and all that jazz. Some of this stuff is left at a 60 year old venue with tons of ground & ground loop issues and used by lots of newbs. The Pioneers obviously lack capacitive touch, but none of the other two dozen other touch ones have issues with grounding or static electricity causing phantom touches. I think the Gemini in the early firmwares had issues with phantom touch if your hand was within like half a centimeter while using the jog bend, but that seems cleared up. The Gemini has an issue with the Link failing if you break the audio connector grounds, but that's it. Maybe I've gotten very very lucky with getting other freakishly good touch designs that are outside the norm?

    Still trying to find out what Denon's talking about the jog self-adjusting or learning based on DJ style. Sounds unnecessary and unpredictable, but so far I don't see any actual evidence for it in the jog bend at least. The forward jog bend sensitivity is definitely twice as sensitive as backward. Is the learning thing just for anticipating backspins and other scratch stuff? Is it just with regards to the auto-touch calibration?

    Deckadance 2.0 also uses Elastique and doesn't sound like that. Torq 2.0 used an older Elastique and sounds similar to the Denon. I don't think it's the SC5000 being V3 of the keylock algorithm that's causing this in-particular. I am definitely hearing Torq 2.0-like extremely aggressive default processing going on in the SC5000. I wouldn't be surprised if it has nothing to do with Elastique and it's just the default DSP system, but who knows. If the pitch fader is at zero or key lock is off, there should be no aggressive processing at all. Try comparing the CDJ2000NXS2 and XDJ1000mk2 sound to the SC5000 and it's not favorable for the Denon with the current firmwares. If you don't have Pioneers to compare, try the demos for Deckadance 2.0 and Torq 2.0 to see what I'm talking about. So I think there's hope we're not stuck with the comparatively dark, processed, mushy coloration on the SC5000.

  7. #87
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    I just got a chance to mess around on an X1800 for about an hour. I have not played on the SC5000 players, but after using the x1800, I will not be interested in testing them out either. The faders felt cheap. The entire experience felt a little too numark for me to feel comfortable paying a way above numark price. Will these units even last?
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_bastet View Post
    I just got a chance to mess around on an X1800 for about an hour. I have not played on the SC5000 players, but after using the x1800, I will not be interested in testing them out either. The faders felt cheap. The entire experience felt a little too numark for me to feel comfortable paying a way above numark price. Will these units even last?
    The faders do feel weird and cheap and plasticy compared to the 1700's faders (and shorter), but my thought was maybe they're like some new super durable design that will last a long time. I have no data to support that very hopeful thought. Aren't the Xone DB faders kind of like that, though? The upfader curve with its knob up is fine for mixing, IMO. I like these detents they're using. What did you feel about the crossfader curves? I notice it does have a metal stopper click on the ends.

    Not sure if they'll last. I did get mine for a huge discount.

  9. #89
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    The faders do feel weird and cheap and plasticy compared to the 1700's faders (and shorter), but my thought was maybe they're like some new super durable design that will last a long time. I have no data to support that very hopeful thought. Aren't the Xone DB faders kind of like that, though? The upfader curve with its knob up is fine for mixing, IMO. I like these detents they're using. What did you feel about the crossfader curves? I notice it does have a metal stopper click on the ends.

    Not sure if they'll last. I did get mine for a huge discount.
    I didnt feel comfortable testing the crossfader more than a couple basic scratches (due to it being someone else's mixer and me not wanting to buy them a new crossfader cause I broke the stem), but it feels very similar to the old djm600 crossfader (which would bend and break if you put to much pressure on it).
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  10. #90
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    You're right though that the keylock is excellent. It is very bizarre hearing pure ambient tones or bells with the pitch wildly away from zero.

    Maybe this will match well side by side with MM and MI cartridges. It also sounded more balanced with bright, lean headphones like the K701.

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