Old Technics 1210 or new Pioneer PLX1000 - Page 2
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  1. #11
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbo21 View Post
    Re pitch faders. On the Hanpin, tracks I knew I could get in perfect time together on Technics would drift. I would nudge the pitch fader ever so slightly +, then ever so slightly - and it just would just either be slightly too fast or slightly too slow. The range of the fader was +/-10%, but on Technics it is +/-8%, so probably better resolution across the length of the fader. If I had to get a Hanpin I would get Reloop 7000's. They have +/-8% and they seem to have improved the wow and flutter.
    The stantons are also +/- 8%. No, I don't know why they're my favorite of the new breed of TTs. I really think it's just because my first experience was with them. Back in high school, a few years before I even considered DJing, one of my friends decided he wanted to play drum & bass. And he started by buying one st-150 (the old blue ones). And we had fun playing with it, despite the fact that he never really learned what he was doing or started DJing at all. He just hung out on the DI.fm forums and talked about D&B and made fun of trance DJs.

    I wonder if he still has it...I should see if I can get it from him just because I would get more of a kick out of it sitting around than my current set of Mk2s that I fee no attachment to whatsoever.

    Anyway....

    I don't think the imprecision @Timbo21 mentioned has as much to do with the range or "resolution" as it does with physical dimensions...when drums are flamming or bass is phasing, fixing it requires very small movements. When I've played on CDJs (which I haven't done since 1000mk2s), I pretty much always had them set at 6% except as an effect, and I kept my DDJ-SX (whichever software) on the smallest pitch range...Traktor stayed at 4% when I've played with pitch faders. If it's too much wider than that, regardless of the "resolution", what feels like a small nudge can trainwreck the whole thing if you're not careful. It's even worse on compact controllers...the faders themselves mostly have tiny resolutions, but they're also insanely short. I actually like manually beat-matching on my D2s about as much as anything else. It takes longer to get close...but once you do, between clear big movements turning into small increments and easier big adjustments with the touch strips, adjusting is a piece of cake.

    It doesn't really matter if the steps are .1% or .02%, if 3/4" or 1/2" movment adjuts about 1 BPM, the movmements required are just too small to fix flamming or phasing just with the pitch fader....which (I'm convinced) is why DJs started feathering one platter or the other in the first place. The early DJ turntables (sl-1100s, thorens, etc.) had even smaller pitch controls.

    That being said, there are a lot of techniques to keep the mixing tight despite those limitations. This imprecision, also, is on the giant list of things that either don't matter or can be a blessing in disguise.

    The physical dimensions of pitch faders (not the technical limitations) is why a lot of people still prefer manual beat-matching and vinyl, whether they know it or not. Even if your mixing is tight, the error is going to cause the BPM of your sets to drift a little bit...which is what gives a DJ set "movement" or "feel". No matter how much people argue for it, it's not the imperfections in beatmatching that people like...it's that everything being perfectly matched means you have to make conscious decisions to use tempo to affect the energy of the room. With turntables, if you're a little hyped up and want the party to accelerate, you're naturally going to err on the side of the new record being a little fast...you slow it down (by feathering the platter) during the transition and then let it accelerate on it's own...and do that with the next one. And after 3-4 records, you're playing a BPM or two faster.

    If everything is perfectly matched, it's really easy to play at the same tempo for far too long....the energy (even if it's high) stagnates, you don't know why, and then you make an abrupt change and possibly lose people.

    I like having the precison and forcing tempo decisisons to be more intentional. I certainly don't mind it being natural, but I'm just wired to want it to be a conscious decision. But, it took me a while to learn that you actuallly have to do it. Frankly, that's the thing that made me switch to D2s....the tempo adjustments are so easy and precise. Plus, it's something to do while a track is playing and I don't want to screw it up by playing with effects or something while I'm just standing there and probably looking bored, regardless of how much I'm enjoying it. Now...I pretty much never stay at the same tempo for an entire track, let alone an entire section or set. It's definitely not the only way to affect energy level, but it's one of the most direct ones.
    Last edited by mostapha; 12-20-2017 at 11:40 AM.

  2. #12
    Tech Mentor EdanUK's Avatar
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    Thanks for the feedback, interesting as I started on Stantons....16 years ago and I loved them.

    It's funny how in hidesight i should have just got the technics instead of the CDJ2000s 5 years ago, but the problem is all the clubs have CDJs only and I used to get nervious playing on them until i bought some and got bored of them.

    Now which one would you do?

    Ex display with case etc....expensive but hard pushed to find any that are that quality
    Or just the mint conditon ones:

    https://www.boommansales.com/store/c...1210_MK2_.html
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  3. #13
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdanUK View Post
    Thanks for the feedback, interesting as I started on Stantons....16 years ago and I loved them.

    It's funny how in hidesight i should have just got the technics instead of the CDJ2000s 5 years ago, but the problem is all the clubs have CDJs only and I used to get nervious playing on them until i bought some and got bored of them.

    Now which one would you do?

    Ex display with case etc....expensive but hard pushed to find any that are that quality
    Or just the mint conditon ones:

    https://www.boommansales.com/store/c...1210_MK2_.html
    It doesn't matter to me anymore. I wouldn't buy the Pioneers because I think they're expensive for what you get and some reports of insane feedback, plus I just don't like them aesthetically. If I decided I just wanted to play with vinyl again for some reason, I'd buy M5Gs regardless of price. But, that's the only way I'd actually care...if I'm thinking about DVS, I'd just use what looked cool and let the computer take care of tempo.

    At this point, for me...the way I listen to what I'm doing is different when I'm using sync vs. when I'm beatmatching manually. And, while the end results sound basically the same either way, I enjoy it more and feel more engaged with what's actually coming out of the mains when I let the gear take care of that task. If the music is coming out of a computer anyway and I'm usually going to be using sync regardless of the gear, even if I decide I want that physicality of baby scratching a closed channel and putting the needle on timecode, the differences between them are so small that I'd just buy whatever looked coolest and probably only one of them, put it behind my mixer with the controllers on the side, and just pick which deck I want to control. But, when I've done that recently, I end up just ignoring the turntable after my first few mixes. I've also played a few house parties with just my M5G and a mixer...and either input reverse or instant doubles, and it works fine. Something like the Reloop (or the Rane Twelve) would be easier just so I could tell at a glance at the deck what it was controlling. But, for me, that phsyicality doesn't really matter except for moving my headspace to somewhere that I'm worried about technical things rather than musicality, which I don't like.

    The only reason I still have mk2s (they're not hooked up) is because of how much I regretted seling my 1210s that I bought from a firend of a friend when I first started...if I still had them, I'd never get rid of them. If that friend still had his st-150 from high school, I'd buy it and never get rid of it (he doesn't). But, that's out of emotional attachment and nostalgia, not anything that actually "matters" as far as the music goes.

  4. #14
    Tech Guru Timbo21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EdanUK View Post
    Now which one would you do?

    Ex display with case etc....expensive but hard pushed to find any that are that quality
    Or just the mint conditon ones:

    https://www.boommansales.com/store/c...1210_MK2_.html
    I sold my 1210's in 2000 which i bought in 1993. Just 2 months ago I bought another set from ebay from a private seller.

    I was considering Boomman. Instead I bought a really good pair from ebay, collected them and got them serviced, and I'm very happy I went that route. They are literally as good as new.

    When I was considering Boomman I messaged a guy on Gearslutz who had bought from them. This was his response:

    "It was ex display unit, SL1210MK2 - however I had rather mixed experiance with the seller.

    The first time the deck arrived, the tonearm was in bad shape - someone forgot to take off counterweight.

    So I contacted them and they send me another tt - this time after about two weeks the pitch fader started going crazy - speeding up or slowing down when moving fader.

    Again, got in touch with Boomann, and they replaced turntable with one I currently have now.

    It is OK, however, I suspect the tonearm might need some servicing - I had two year warranty on the unit, but tried to fix turntable myself so the warranty is no longer valid. I would have to take it to the nearest shop and get this fixed.

    Perhaps, it was just bad luck or they had some dodgy decks in their storage since the guy told they have dozens of Technics decks..."


    When I spoke to Boomman on the phone and wanted to know the serial number of the unit was, so I could see how old it was, he said they had many units and it could be anything from early 90's to 2006. This made me sceptical about their 'New' ex-display. How many new ex-display is it possible to have? The guy I got mine serviced with did a really thorough strip down and test. From the guys experience at Gearslutz it certainly doesn't sound like they do much servicing. But maybe he was unlucky. There are good reviews on Amazon for them, and they did replace the unit....
    Last edited by Timbo21; 12-21-2017 at 01:14 PM.
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  5. #15
    DJTT Moderator bloke Karlos Santos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timbo21 View Post
    How many new ex-display is it possible to have?
    This is exactly what I thought when I looked at Boomman. I mean, I've 'never' seen a 1210 on display anywhere, certainly not in recent memory which begs the questions 'when and where, were they on display'?.

    The only Technics I've seen on display recently is one of the new ones which was unfortunately in the window of a store when I bought a TV and a network hifi amp. I could have just bought the deck but my wife was with me

    I think you are better off sourcing a pair from someone where you can physically check them out. If you're willing to spend the kind of money Boomman want then you will have the pick of the crop.

  6. #16
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlos Santos View Post
    This is exactly what I thought when I looked at Boomman. I mean, I've 'never' seen a 1210 on display anywhere, certainly not in recent memory which begs the questions 'when and where, were they on display'?.

    The only Technics I've seen on display recently is one of the new ones which was unfortunately in the window of a store when I bought a TV and a network hifi amp. I could have just bought the deck but my wife was with me

    I think you are better off sourcing a pair from someone where you can physically check them out. If you're willing to spend the kind of money Boomman want then you will have the pick of the crop.
    There are actually a good number on display at a local shop, pretty much all the time. None of them are new or NOS or anything like that. But they're at least internally clean. And prices are pretty decent compared to some of what I see online.

  7. #17
    DJTT Moderator bloke Karlos Santos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    None of them are new or NOS
    Yeah that is my point. I see them in 2nd hand shops or in music shops but they are clearly used.
    In the UK 'ex-display' generally refers to products that are brand new but have been on display in the shop. It certainly doesn't mean second hand or 10, 20 years old.

  8. #18
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karlos Santos View Post
    Yeah that is my point. I see them in 2nd hand shops or in music shops but they are clearly used.
    In the UK 'ex-display' generally refers to products that are brand new but have been on display in the shop. It certainly doesn't mean second hand or 10, 20 years old.
    Yeah....I assumed that's what it meant. I bought my RP5s like that, and they were a great deal and 100% fine (apart from being KRK).

    If I saw a 1200 that said NOS or ex-display, I'd probably assume it was a lie at this point.


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