Camelot Jumps?
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  1. #1

    Question Camelot Jumps?

    So I've been reading into camelot wheels and dj mixing because I wanted to create a mashup. So far I have the bare bones of a mashup and I still need to add a lot to it but this is what I assumed after a few tutorial videos:

    If you start in 8B, you can go 1 of 3 ways
    to 8A
    to 9B
    to 7B

    I was disecting Marble Soda when I realized that right after his breakdown, he switches from 11B to 8B.
    I have no idea that you can do this/ if it'll work.

    Does anyone have any good techniques or tutorials or tips? I'm still rather new to mashups and I can't find any in-depth tutorials except for people switching the instrumentals with the vocals of two songs.

    Thanks in advance!

  2. #2
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Get a piano or a midi controller and a decent piano plugin and learn your keys. Once you develop an ear for key, you won't find yourself relying on key codes as much anymore and the camelot wheel will go from a mixing tool to a reference tool.
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

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    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    It's actually easier to understand this stuff with at least the bare bones of music theory rather than just the simplified "one way to do it" that the camelot wheel shows.

    There's also quite a degree of error in any of the analysis, if that's where you're getting those keys from.

    Basically, camelot works fine for DJs just getting into harmonic mixing. But if you're actually writing a song....it's nowehre near comprehensive.

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    It's actually easier to understand this stuff with at least the bare bones of music theory rather than just the simplified "one way to do it" that the camelot wheel shows.

    There's also quite a degree of error in any of the analysis, if that's where you're getting those keys from.

    Basically, camelot works fine for DJs just getting into harmonic mixing. But if you're actually writing a song....it's nowehre near comprehensive.
    I've written a couple of songs already, but its just mashups and having no idea where to start. The only thing that really came up was dj mixing, something that I was reluctant to learn until recently because I really wanted to make a mashup.

    Thanks for the tips though!

  5. #5
    Tech Guru the_bastet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwaffle View Post
    I've written a couple of songs already, but its just mashups and having no idea where to start. The only thing that really came up was dj mixing, something that I was reluctant to learn until recently because I really wanted to make a mashup.

    Thanks for the tips though!
    A good way to learn key for mixing is to play the tunes on repeat and start playing along with the notes in the songs. Two tracks can be in the same average key, but have changes in chrod progression and scale throughout the song that will throw you off while mixing.
    - Equipment - 2X Technics 1200, 2X Audio Technica ATLP1240, 2X XDJ700, 2X XDJ1000 MK2, Denon DNX-1100, Mixars DUO, DJM750 MK2, NI Audio 10, NI Aduio 4, Serato SL3, 4X Shure M44-7, 2X Ortofon Pro S, 2X Numark Groove Tool, Maschine MK3, Samson Carbon 49, Roland SE-02, Novation Launchcontrol, TouchOSC, Nocation Peak, Arturia MiniBrute, Korg Volca Kick, MicroKorg (Classic), NI Komplete Audio 6

  6. #6
    Tech Guru mostapha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwaffle View Post
    I've written a couple of songs already, but its just mashups and having no idea where to start. The only thing that really came up was dj mixing, something that I was reluctant to learn until recently because I really wanted to make a mashup.

    Thanks for the tips though!
    The short version is that if it sounds good, it is good. And your ears will get better at that as you gain experience. As if by magic.

    You know, unless you're tone deaf.

    If you're using Live, you can also adjust keys in the clip edit view. And if you need to, you can automate it. It won't sound good if you go too far, but it can shift a semitone or two with no problems.

    If you want a crash course on music theory, this is a good reference. There's a lot of information there, and most of it isn't relevant to you. But, if nothing else, it can give you the terminology to start googling or youtubing for answers.

    Mashups are actually somewhat difficult. If you're just putting an a'capella over another beat, that's relatively easy. It just has to not clash, and Live's key adjustment works great for that. Just listen and see what needs to change. If you're mashing up 2 songs with different harmonic content, there's a lot more to think about in terms of melodies and chord progressions.

    Fortunately, a lot of music is written with the same patterns, especially within a genre.

    "Every rock song ever" is a simple chord progression of G C D (or I IV V in different keys). It's not actually every song, but it's more true than you'd think. Most classic Blues fits the 12-bar quick change blues riff. In the key of G, it's G C G G C C G G C D G G, with the same basic pattern played in each for 1 measure each. If it's in a different key, you just move the same pattern up or down.

    Most successful mashups I've heard seem to start with the producer realizing "hey, these songs are insanely similar." For example...



    That's a different progression, but it's kind of crazy how many songs fit that same chord progression. Seriously, watch his left hand. The rhythm changes a bit, and he has to sing some of the songs in pacabel's rhythm instead of the origianls, but...yeah. It'a kind of crazy.

    Also, yes, Pachabel's first name was Johan.

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mostapha View Post
    The short version is that if it sounds good, it is good. And your ears will get better at that as you gain experience. As if by magic.

    You know, unless you're tone deaf.

    If you're using Live, you can also adjust keys in the clip edit view. And if you need to, you can automate it. It won't sound good if you go too far, but it can shift a semitone or two with no problems.

    If you want a crash course on music theory, this is a good reference. There's a lot of information there, and most of it isn't relevant to you. But, if nothing else, it can give you the terminology to start googling or youtubing for answers.

    Mashups are actually somewhat difficult. If you're just putting an a'capella over another beat, that's relatively easy. It just has to not clash, and Live's key adjustment works great for that. Just listen and see what needs to change. If you're mashing up 2 songs with different harmonic content, there's a lot more to think about in terms of melodies and chord progressions.

    Fortunately, a lot of music is written with the same patterns, especially within a genre.

    "Every rock song ever" is a simple chord progression of G C D (or I IV V in different keys). It's not actually every song, but it's more true than you'd think. Most classic Blues fits the 12-bar quick change blues riff. In the key of G, it's G C G G C C G G C D G G, with the same basic pattern played in each for 1 measure each. If it's in a different key, you just move the same pattern up or down.

    Most successful mashups I've heard seem to start with the producer realizing "hey, these songs are insanely similar." For example...



    That's a different progression, but it's kind of crazy how many songs fit that same chord progression. Seriously, watch his left hand. The rhythm changes a bit, and he has to sing some of the songs in pacabel's rhythm instead of the origianls, but...yeah. It'a kind of crazy.

    Also, yes, Pachabel's first name was Johan.
    Dude, thanks for the info; this was a lot more than I expected making the post!
    Currently, what I'm doing is using the basic ableton's transpose function and also flattening tracks with isolated sounds and what not. Trying to find the right sounds and having it all flow together seems to be the hardest next to getting everything in tone so I'm still slowly figuring that out.

    In terms of music theory; I need to learn it, I won't make it far without knowing at least what things are instead of just feeling and hearing the music out.

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