Traktor Pro 3 ... Thoughts and experiences

**sebrattansen** · 10-23-2018, 06:07 AM

Originally Posted by rdej47

... I have a feeling that NI had a lot riding on Stems and the Kontrol S8/D2. It seems like that was the last really substantial update from NI and unfortunately since it didn't pan out they probably had to go back to the drawing board.

...

This is probably true. A bit sad really because it was brave of NI to go down this route, and it was a good idea with a lot of potential. But since they never got a critical mass of tunes being released in Stem format...it was never going to take off. Always gutted when a company tries something different and gets hammered for it.

**mostapha** · 10-23-2018, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by sebrattansen

This is probably true. A bit sad really because it was brave of NI to go down this route, and it was a good idea with a lot of potential. But since they never got a critical mass of tunes being released in Stem format...it was never going to take off. Always gutted when a company tries something different and gets hammered for it.

That's fair. And probably correct.

That being said, there are reasons.

First, the vast majority of gigging DJs don't actually do anything all that special or weird compared to the last 40 years of DJing. At least in my local scene, it seems like the most popular weird thing is video. And the way the local guys do it, it's just a video output that the club handles and different files that take longer to load. A few go more in-depth than that but pretty much accomplish the same thing with a little more control (e.g., AVB's setup from a few years ago involving fader start and SMTPE tracks). And if you're playing like that, it's a lot easier to show up with a USB key or at most a laptop and a USB or LAN cable.

When you're actually playing multiple times per week, load-in and load-out consume a lot of your time. And if you're not playing all night, you're moving all that stuff around in the booth with a lot of pressure to not screw anything up. It's solvable, and a lot of people do it. But, it's a largely unnecessary PITA.

Second, the vast majority of gigging DJs who do truly weird things (think Hawtin, Dubfire, PVD, etc.) are cobbling together setups that are significantly more customized than just Traktor (and they often use Traktor anyway; they just use other things that are better at those "other" features). Plus, Serato has had the same capabilities that Stem, Remix, and Sample decks add for years via Ableton Live integration. And Traktor still can't match it.

I'm convinced that sponsorships are the only reason the likes of Hawtin and Dubfire aren't using Serato/Live. It's just easier to set up and more reliable. If I were trying to do a decks + Push + synths thing today, that's the way I'd do it. If for some reason I wanted to use Maschine instead of Push, I'd still run it as a plugin in Live. It's just a simpler and more powerful setup.

In addition to that, Stems are one of those things that "everybody" thinks they want. But, they actually don't. A lot of care goes into making a track. And while there is something magical about a true live performance, the level of control just isn't there for working with stems the way NI envisioned. There are huge compromises both in technical terms and in performance terms. They're not good at anything but live mashups.

And trying to do live mashups doesn't quite work right like that. It can work great, but it's always a little sloppy compared to doing it in the studio ahead of time, and it still doesn't have that "live magic" that a band or true live performance has. It's really no better than finding a'capellas and instrumentals and doing the kinds of things DJs have been doing since the '70s.

So, they're pretty much down to a different control surface that works basically the same way but looks somewhat but not completely different. Personally, I think the D2 and S8 were the best things NI has released in years. But, I'm in the minority. I finally bought my D2s (the last two my GC ever got) right before they were discontinued. Having used every major way of DJing, it's my favorite. And, I almost feel abandoned. There's going to be a limit to how long they work...at some point, my computer is going to need an upgrade that precludes their use.

NI, specifically, has burned me like that a couple times in the past...when I needed to upgrade something (usually a computer dying and needing a new one that wouldn't run old software anymore). Other companies have too; it's just a part of working with modern technology. But, it still kinda sucks. And it makes people weary to try something new that comes with that many additional headaches.

So, you're in a situation where either you pretty much DJ traditionally and Rekordbox gives you the easiest time of setup and tear-down or you want to do a bunch of live stuff and a customized setup gives you a lot more for the effort. And, with rekordbox, you're not so tied to the hardware. One of their controllers at home and export your library to USB keys (or bring the laptop and plugin via LAN) is at least as cost effective as a Traktor setup....but you pretty much don't need an equipment rider or any odd requests...which is a huge bonus when you're getting your foot in the door at local venues.

That's why those things failed.

If NI really wants to push "the future of DJing" to anyone who isn't exclusively playing in their bedroom (or a headliner that can get whatever crazy rider they want), the way forward is a standalone all-in-one S8 or standalone D2s that are simpler to setup and require, at most, power and audio connections (with both S/PDIF and Analog outputs to make setup & tear-down easier/quicker). But, that's still going to be a much tougher sale than "every club has this setup, and here's a cost-effective version that you can use at home, and you can effectively bring everything you really need to the club in your pants pockets".

I admire what they're trying to do. But it just doesn't work out for that many people.

**Patch** · 10-23-2018, 11:21 AM

I can’t believe I’m saying this, here, but after reading up a bit on VDJ’s Library & Smart List implementation, I’m seriously considering giving it a try.

**astromech** · 10-23-2018, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by mostapha

That's fair. And probably correct.

That being said, there are reasons.

First, the vast majority of gigging DJs don't actually do anything all that special or weird compared to the last 40 years of DJing. At least in my local scene, it seems like the most popular weird thing is video. And the way the local guys do it, it's just a video output that the club handles and different files that take longer to load. A few go more in-depth than that but pretty much accomplish the same thing with a little more control (e.g., AVB's setup from a few years ago involving fader start and SMTPE tracks). And if you're playing like that, it's a lot easier to show up with a USB key or at most a laptop and a USB or LAN cable.

When you're actually playing multiple times per week, load-in and load-out consume a lot of your time. And if you're not playing all night, you're moving all that stuff around in the booth with a lot of pressure to not screw anything up. It's solvable, and a lot of people do it. But, it's a largely unnecessary PITA.

Second, the vast majority of gigging DJs who do truly weird things (think Hawtin, Dubfire, PVD, etc.) are cobbling together setups that are significantly more customized than just Traktor (and they often use Traktor anyway; they just use other things that are better at those "other" features). Plus, Serato has had the same capabilities that Stem, Remix, and Sample decks add for years via Ableton Live integration. And Traktor still can't match it.

I'm convinced that sponsorships are the only reason the likes of Hawtin and Dubfire aren't using Serato/Live. It's just easier to set up and more reliable. If I were trying to do a decks + Push + synths thing today, that's the way I'd do it. If for some reason I wanted to use Maschine instead of Push, I'd still run it as a plugin in Live. It's just a simpler and more powerful setup.

In addition to that, Stems are one of those things that "everybody" thinks they want. But, they actually don't. A lot of care goes into making a track. And while there is something magical about a true live performance, the level of control just isn't there for working with stems the way NI envisioned. There are huge compromises both in technical terms and in performance terms. They're not good at anything but live mashups.

And trying to do live mashups doesn't quite work right like that. It can work great, but it's always a little sloppy compared to doing it in the studio ahead of time, and it still doesn't have that "live magic" that a band or true live performance has. It's really no better than finding a'capellas and instrumentals and doing the kinds of things DJs have been doing since the '70s.

So, they're pretty much down to a different control surface that works basically the same way but looks somewhat but not completely different. Personally, I think the D2 and S8 were the best things NI has released in years. But, I'm in the minority. I finally bought my D2s (the last two my GC ever got) right before they were discontinued. Having used every major way of DJing, it's my favorite. And, I almost feel abandoned. There's going to be a limit to how long they work...at some point, my computer is going to need an upgrade that precludes their use.

NI, specifically, has burned me like that a couple times in the past...when I needed to upgrade something (usually a computer dying and needing a new one that wouldn't run old software anymore). Other companies have too; it's just a part of working with modern technology. But, it still kinda sucks. And it makes people weary to try something new that comes with that many additional headaches.

So, you're in a situation where either you pretty much DJ traditionally and Rekordbox gives you the easiest time of setup and tear-down or you want to do a bunch of live stuff and a customized setup gives you a lot more for the effort. And, with rekordbox, you're not so tied to the hardware. One of their controllers at home and export your library to USB keys (or bring the laptop and plugin via LAN) is at least as cost effective as a Traktor setup....but you pretty much don't need an equipment rider or any odd requests...which is a huge bonus when you're getting your foot in the door at local venues.

That's why those things failed.

If NI really wants to push "the future of DJing" to anyone who isn't exclusively playing in their bedroom (or a headliner that can get whatever crazy rider they want), the way forward is a standalone all-in-one S8 or standalone D2s that are simpler to setup and require, at most, power and audio connections (with both S/PDIF and Analog outputs to make setup & tear-down easier/quicker). But, that's still going to be a much tougher sale than "every club has this setup, and here's a cost-effective version that you can use at home, and you can effectively bring everything you really need to the club in your pants pockets".

I admire what they're trying to do. But it just doesn't work out for that many people.

Seriously... Hawtin and Dubfire don't get sponsorship. Anymore than they did for using the 92. They might get shit for free, but they don't get paid. They use Traktor because it's the best for their workflow, and they're happy with it. They'd move in a heartbeat if they needed to. They're also involved in developing a lot of the products they use, via feedback and possibly a little bit of sideline consultancy.

There are many people that don't like Serato. Myself included. Mainly because it's so fucking rigid, you can't customise anything. Don't like that layout? Tough shit. Want to use that controller? Tough shit.

Honestly, they're already using Live. They have the extra channels on their audio interface and mixer. Hawtin doesn't even use sync between Traktor and Live.

**Karlos Santos** · 10-24-2018, 05:46 AM

Originally Posted by astromech

Seriously... Hawtin and Dubfire don't get sponsorship. Anymore than they did for using the 92. They might get shit for free, but they don't get paid. They use Traktor because it's the best for their workflow, and they're happy with it.

I've been telling people this for years but many just don't believe it.
I've no idea what deals Serato or Ableton have with artists but NI don't sponsor anyone.

**SlayForMoney** · 10-24-2018, 08:03 AM

Ok, but the rest of his post is SPOT ON.
My god, seen it a number of times, DJ's using remix/stem decks occassionally and then just making a studio edit of a thing they did live just because it sounds better/is easier. Remember the flood of used F1 controllers on forums after they released the remix decks?

I will still continue using Traktor. I don't need better Traktor library management, that would just make me lazier lol. As astromech said, I hate rigidity of Serato. And those parallel waveforms (probably PTSD from all the years watching SSL boys rant about sync one moment and then doing the Serato face when riding waveforms).
Using RekordboxDJ would only bring me more problems later when Pioneer closes their software to all 3rd party devices.
So bypass of internal mixer in external mode and better keylock are good enough reasons for me to upgrade. But yeah, minor upgrades that won't be worth it for a majority of users.

**the_bastet** · 10-24-2018, 12:41 PM

So boys, I am going back to Traktor. Now I just need to find an easy way to sync my Engine Prime and Traktor libraries. :-p

**jakeintox** · 10-24-2018, 12:50 PM

Originally Posted by Patch

I can’t believe I’m saying this, here, but after reading up a bit on VDJ’s Library & Smart List implementation, I’m seriously considering giving it a try.

VDJ has been downlow blowing the competition out of the water for years...