Native Mode vs. Custom Mapping what do you gain/lose

[haze324]

How much do you lose when using the S4 in midi mode?

I understand the LED’s for the loops don’t work, and I expect the jogwheel resolution to be much better in NHL/HID mode --- but how much performance do you lose when in midi mode. I’m thinking is a customizable .TSI worth not operating in HID mode???

If only NI would allow us to edit the native mapping – but they don’t. For a Top 40/Hip Hop set I need good jogs, but when playing a tech house set --- not so much. So do I really need NHL/HID performance.

Thoughts?

[VanGogo]

I could see making a midi mapping similar to Yul's for some super buttons/knobs etc. as another controll layer that I would switch into and out of as needed. It's just a shift click away so you could use both. That way you have the HID for the jogs to scratch, and in Midi you can map the jogs to controll Fx(or what ever). So why choose 1 or the other when you can use both?
Not sure of the difference in feel/latency of midi compared to HID, as I haven't made a midi map on the S4 to compare, but then again I am extremely happy with the layout/workflow of the HID mapping and I have something else to map my super knobs/buttons on.

[Yul]

You have three main options (and/or some combinations of them to an extend):
- native
- custom HID
- midi

Have you considered a custom HID instead of midi?
you map it like in midi mode almost, the same limitations applies - but you can't assign a fader or a knob as a 'button' (ie you cant' have a super knob that would hold 'on' an effect...silly? yes I think so).

There's one thing you loose when you drop the native mode, it's the sheer complexity of it that can't be reproduced by a custom mapping. In other words for some controls there is so many different 'states' and interconnections between those controls, it is near impossible to recreate those with a custom mapping whatever type it is, especially with what the current controller manager allows.
I "think" it is way too complex for the most majority of users and that's why NI doesn't 'open' it (just for the time being may be) - bearing also in mind we don't have the same tools available for programming/mapping. Most people will mess with it, whine after (because that's what most people do usually) and that will add an unnecessary workload to NI.
That's the price I imagine for the tight integration between software/hardware. I may be wrong, or not, I don't know for sure.



On the other hand with a custom approach you have different functions that can be mapped that don't exist for the time being within TP (like the loop backwards functions).

By the way it's not only the leds for the loops but almost all led feedback from the two screens that can't be mapped in midi mode.

In the end many people were quite happy with their midi controller, so why wouldn't they be if not more by using the S4 as a plain super midi controller only?

It's all a matter of balance, is what you want to add/custom worth loosing much controls provided by the native mapping? And if it's not THAT worth, may be an additional controller is the solution.

What do you want to do?

What about having a look at the custom s4 mapping provided as a base with the software, you can start from there (and you'll see how it has been built which is always useful, I found a tip or two inside personally). You will also be able to make a quick difference from it compared to the native one (quite a few options you'll see).

[photojojo]

Is there any way to check the resolution of the jogs in midi mode? Chilly said he noticed no difference and I think I've seen that brought up by others.

[haze324]

Yul....

I knew you'd be the guy to break it down. Thanks.

You know the thing is, I think the native mode is great. The only thing I'd like to add is super knob or two, or some better/quicker effects presets. And I'm not a guy that uses tons of effects, or even the loop recorder. Just want to make it more comfortable for my style.

[Yul]

Just take my words with a pinch of salt as my perception/opinion may change. I don't hold any clue here and I'm really interested in someone else's view on the S4.

I think if you're only looking for some super knobs, may be using a simple mapping in midi mode that you can access quickly by switching mode could do the trick, you don't have to remap everything and that can be done easily.
Mmmh like if you're using only two super types of super knobs, you use two knobs for each unit for one deck, the other for the other deck (same on the other unit) so you don't even have to think about assigning units to deck, you map everything to your knob. Bam! One deck, one super fx combo, one dedicated control.
- Or add an additional controller, one unit to add but one less layer on your s4 to work upon (the less layer the better usually for me).

It needs some more thoughts as you may need to retain some controls like if you're using a sweep type kind of effect you may need in some case to be able to have play/pause available (or any critical control) on the layer you're working upon. It needs some thoughts about how you mix and how you use effects (what are the different steps you take and in what order, what movement may call another one), and as a result that may increase the amount of mapping to do.

As a personal point of view I think a custom mapping (hd/midi only) is really interesting if you're using like only one type of deck (track decks) on decks C&D, it really reduces the complexity of a potential mapping and still allow for room to set up a few personal options. And if you don't or use sample decks, may be keeping the native one is best.

What do you guys think?

[Yul]

What about a faderfox unit, small, convenient, has good reviews from users, you could dedicate it to your effects only?

[bigbeatzz]

I really wish NI would open up the mapping of AT LEAST the effects knobs. It would help a bunch. As it stands right now can these knobs be mapped to multiple effect units. Like Effect unit one knob one is already mapped in a certain way. Can I also add a function? For example Gater on fx 1 slot 1 and reverb on fx 3 slot 1?


Edit: Woa...It's possible, just tested. If you adjust the sensitivity on the user mapping you can get creative.

[haze324]

Ok so can we set effects and 3 and 4 as the default ones to control and the create a user mapping to control them AND also cancel/negate the default buttons that control effects one and 2. Idea being that when I press the buttons to assign effect 3 it doesn’t also assign effect 1.

And therefore be able to create some presets or knobs that control mutliple effects?

[Yul]

While using the native mapping: it depends on how you set up things and if you use 4 fx units or not (if you do use 4 fx units you need to set up more modifiers). But for two fx units only, you need to create modifiers that represent the state of the fx unit (note as this is important here: use the 'fx panel mode' modifier instead of a generic one), the action of shift on the buttons and the different functions you would like to map on your control (and you may need to counter balance some native functions).
On the knobs you could add something but you won't be able to change their native sensitivity or their native purpose (those aren't encoders so the usual trick won't work to adjust sensitivity): the D/W knob will always manage the D/W parameter and you cant' alter its movement.
The question is how you will call your different presets (automatically I mean).
Another question would be the purpose of each knob, if one is dedicated for a preset that's fine, if you change the preset for the same knob, you'll probably have to use the same set of settings as those will apply to the knob (unless you know how to create a modifier matrix).

Does that make sense?