SmartMixing with Ableton Live 8... add VST's? loops?

So I've got traktor pro sucessfully sync'd to ableton live 8, with jackOSX on a mac.

I'm using the "v10" bentosan smart mixer, seems to be doing it's job just fine. This version only had two decks, but I duplicated the decks and SC's and made it input all 4 decks from Traktor. It sounds fine to me, but is the smartmixing still working the same or did I cheat? I would think Track's b and d or a and c aren't being smart mixed b/c they're on the same side of the fader, but that's fine, I still have all my EQ's mapped in traktor.

What do I have to do to add a VST instrument or an loop in ableton and still have it smart mixed? do I have to create a SC for everything? can I do that as many times as I need to?

Traktor is pretty self explanatory to me, but ableton is a different beast, i'm hitting the learning curve hard, haha. How do I enable soft takeover in ableton? the levels jump around when i switch between A/B and C/D because it's mapped direct to my faders.

I searched but didn't find something specific to adding things to the smartmixer. If there is a post somewhere that answers all my questions and more please point! Thanks!

I've been working on a 4 deck, 4fx unit, bentosan smartmixer mapping for my xponent I'm hoping to share after I get a bit further. Thanks to everyone in the DJTT community who've been providing so much awesome stuff for the whole digidj community! I hope I can make my contribution eventually.

Dude, you are opening a huge can of worms here. The Bento smartmixer is built for two sources, and modifiying it for use with four (or more) sources is not as simple as cutting and pasting the devices. Bento hasn't even finished a build out of a four deck version yet. There's a ton of variables involved. Which of four decks is having the compression applied to it? Which is the master, signaling how much compression is applied? Does one deck control compression on multiple decks? It's complex.

IMHO, unless you really know what you're doing, don't mess with it. Or alternately, you could settle for A/B smartmixing, and C/D smartmixing without any interaction between those two groups.

Also, re: the soft takeover thing - Is "Pickup" mode enabled in Ableton's midi prefs? If your controller setup is such that that setting doesn't solve the problem, Bome's MT can do the trick. I use a bit of code to handle soft takeover that works very well with ableton. It basically involves "remembering" the last position the fader was at, and not sending any new info until that value is passed through again. If you get to the point that you want to dive into that, let me know and I can send you an example file.

Thanks dude! that's exactly what I was wondering!

There needs to be a "smartmixing wiki" or soemthing, because the information for it is not organized well. Looking at djtt blogs and forum posts I see bentosan saying "i'm working on a 4 deck version that will be out soon" but those posts are almost a year old now, So I wonder if the problem had been figured out.

I'm more interested in having smartmixing work on VST instruments, clips in Live, other fun ableton Live stuff.

I have to adjust all my deck EQ's in traktor even using the smart mixer to get the sound right, but I can hear the smart mixer working as I never get hard frequency peaks. I'm not looking for SmartMiing to do all or even most of the EQ work, just to smooth the edges out.

What would you suggest If I leave all decks set to stupid mixing (hi, thats me) and only want to use the smart mixer for things in Live?

If I go back to a 2 deck version, does that make life easier to smartmix in VST's?

Haha, sorry for overwhelming you with questions. You've already confirmed my suspecions that dupicating SC's forever is not the answer. That's a big help.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

There needs to be a "smartmixing wiki" or soemthing, because the information for it is not organized well. Looking at djtt blogs and forum posts I see bentosan saying "i'm working on a 4 deck version that will be out soon" but those posts are almost a year old now, So I wonder if the problem had been figured out.

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Well, 4 decks does involve a pretty massive amount of routing, and lots of knobs and buttons, making it not so intuitive to work with. Essentially you would duplicate the 2 deck setup, and then run the results of the 2 sets of channels into another pair of filters and compressors. I think bento made a sketch on how it would all work.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

I have to adjust all my deck EQ's in traktor even using the smart mixer to get the sound right, but I can hear the smart mixer working as I never get hard frequency peaks. I'm not looking for SmartMixing to do all or even most of the EQ work, just to smooth the edges out.

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That wont work really well. What you could do, if you're happy with your EQ to only be cutting, would be to make a rack that splits the signal into the relevant frequency bands, then have an amount control that maps to both the output volume and ratio of the compressor. That way the cut would be heavier if there's something in the other channel. I don't think it'd sound that great thou.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

What would you suggest If I leave all decks set to stupid mixing (hi, thats me) and only want to use the smart mixer for things in Live?

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You could put your master going into one of the smart mixed channels in ableton and sum the rest of the ableton loops/songs/synths into the other. IE, you mix as usual in traktor, then you use the smart mixing to mix it with what you run in traktor.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

If I go back to a 2 deck version, does that make life easier to smartmix in VST's?

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Now you lost me, smart mix _in_ VSTs?

But if by vsts you mean effects, just place them were it makes sense in the signal chain. Some things might do better on the master than on a deck.


However, the thing about Bento's setup is that it's best suited to quick cuts, else you'll need to be fiddling the ratio knobs while bringing in a new track not to make a "hole" in your mix. And there's no way to smoothly fade between two bands.

I've taken a slightly different approach (at the moment 3 bands instead of two), crossfading between the channels with knobs. The key to get it smooth is to also map the threshold (and/or the sidechain gain) to avoid a dip in the middle. I might release my template (I'm completely ableton based, but routing traktor isn't harder than on any other template).

Stupidmixing. LOL! I love it.
Yeah, Ableton is great for options, and I'm sure it could be figured out. But again, without a smart (and intuitive) system for designating which of your channels is the master (serving as the signal that applies the compression), it's all kind of a moot point. But if you do that and are willing to constantly be aware of which signal(s) are in control, AND can figure out a clean way to fade between master signals, you might have something that works for 4 or more channels. I think I'd be into doing it if it weren't such a headache. But I'd be more than happy to test out other's work!!

Haha, I'll let you know how I progress Zac.

Thanks so much Ola. I don't understand some of what you said. So I'll have to learn more about Live before I can respond, you've sent me in some really good directions though, and that's best.

By smartmix "in" VST's... ok I read in one of the DJTT sync'ing traktor to ableton blogs that one of the benefits is being able to play virtual instruments in Live (which I think are VST's? but I'm still learning Live, so the concepts are blurry) Like a drum machine or a cello, and have it sync'd to the master clock in Traktor. Can these be smart mixed? Do they need to be? Can I control the EQ of instruments in Live like in Traktor?

I'm coming from a Live retarded background here, so if your answer is simply "Learn more about Live you fking idiot." I'll gladly accept that. If I can get by with just the information to mesh Live with Traktor, I'm happier (and I think many other folks in the community would be happier too.) But it is what it is, I'm prepared to delve into whatever underground techy subculture I have to, to get the job smooth and groovin, like my soul tells me it should be.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

Haha, I'll let you know how I progress Zac.

Thanks so much Ola. I don't understand some of what you said. So I'll have to learn more about Live before I can respond, you've sent me in some really good directions though, and that's best.

By smartmix "in" VST's... ok I read in one of the DJTT sync'ing traktor to ableton blogs that one of the benefits is being able to play virtual instruments in Live (which I think are VST's? but I'm still learning Live, so the concepts are blurry) Like a drum machine or a cello, and have it sync'd to the master clock in Traktor. Can these be smart mixed? Do they need to be? Can I control the EQ of instruments in Live like in Traktor?

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You can play VSTi's as well as Lives native devices, but as long as you pick something with suitable timbres, it'll likely sound better just having levels set right than to compress them.

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

I'm coming from a Live retarded background here, so if your answer is simply "Learn more about Live you fking idiot." I'll gladly accept that. If I can get by with just the information to mesh Live with Traktor, I'm happier (and I think many other folks in the community would be happier too.) But it is what it is, I'm prepared to delve into whatever underground techy subculture I have to, to get the job smooth and groovin, like my soul tells me it should be.

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I guess you need to play around and figure out what it is that you really want to do...

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Originally Posted by SanZoku

By smartmix "in" VST's... ok I read in one of the DJTT sync'ing traktor to ableton blogs that one of the benefits is being able to play virtual instruments in Live (which I think are VST's? but I'm still learning Live, so the concepts are blurry) Like a drum machine or a cello, and have it sync'd to the master clock in Traktor. Can these be smart mixed? Do they need to be? Can I control the EQ of instruments in Live like in Traktor?

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think of the smart mixer live set as a template by which you can "smartmix" audio sources in ableton. these audio sources might be vsts, might be clips, might be songs, might be loops etc. if its an audio source that can be used in ableton, then it can be used in the smartmixer.

Instead of thinking of the smartmixer as a compressor (it uses compressors) think of it as multi-band volume automation. Sidechaining simply put is lowering the volume of the effected source by the height of the key input source. In bentosan's setup he has cleverly split the high/lo bands of each track and made it so there is a high/low keyinput for each track, so instead of a single track being the key input, the user may choose how he/she wants the lows or highs of the input track to effect the lows and highs of the other track. the clever part is how he did the split: well he talks about it, i suggest rereading ALL of his notes on the smartmixer.

In theory your example with ableton, traktor, and a vst drum machine should work perfect. In practice, the response to midi clock changes isn't perfect and there is still some manual nudging that has to go on to get everything to stay in sync.

yes, there are dj-style eqs in ableton.

do you need to any of this to make it sound good? depends on what you are going for

I am saving up for a new computer at the moment, my current setup doesnt do screen recording very well at all. Im going to release a how to video on using the 2 deck setup, then release a 4 deck setup. I actually have the 4 deck setup already made but i am playing with some workflow improvements, thats why it hasn't been released just yet.

If you want 4 decks you essentially need three times the smartmixing, in the two deck setup deck A is smartmixing deck B. For 4 decks you need to duplicate that smartmixer so deck C is smartmixing deck B, then duplicate the 2 deck setup AGAIN - this time smartmixing the sum of A+B decks against C+D decks. That way essentially wherever the crossfader is positioned(or the positions of your line faders) there will only be one track dominating the bassline - to do that with "dumbmixing" you would need 5 hands instead of just one.

Eventually i will create a 5 deck smartmixer, which i have already started working on which will be very Moldoveresque - the 4 deck version is actually a bit more complicated in use in comparison to the 5 deck version which while sounds counter intuative, is actually quite true.

Edit: Oh ill also be working with M4L very soon to see what kind of improvements i can make using the M4L enviroment :) Ill still be releasing version that don't require M4L to use though :)

I am almost ready to dive into M4L too .. damn that launchpad is just too much fun with Ableton .. and I want more fun! :)

Learning the basics about compressors and filters atm and how to combine them in Ableton. So I might be of assistance soon. Plus I just reduced work hours to 28 hours a week (w00t!) .. but this music hobby is starting to feel risky in this light .. more time off .. means more time to spend it on music and stuff.