A disconnect I'm noticing in the culture

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Originally Posted by haze324

I think he means when someone buys an S2 and says man this thing is wonderful, when they have haven't used anything else. So of course they think it's great.

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I understand what your saying, but if somebody asks about the s2 shouldn't everybody who's used an s2 get to talk about it? If they're asking "should I get an s2 or s4?" then what's the problem with them saying "oh I like the s2, it's worth the money."

Of course I see the problem with somebody who's only used an s2 saying it's the greatest thing ever. But if they only have 6 months experience but has used a variety of equipment should we just throw their opinion out because they're a "newbie"?

I would say I can see whiskeys point, if he would stop saying "this is my point" or "my point is" and say something completely different each time.

Heres my point, everybody has their opinion on equipment, even "newbies". And their opinions shouldn't get thrown out because they haven't been doing this for 4 or 5 years like some of us. Its not the "newbies" thats forcing other people to buy the s2/s4 or low end equipment, and its not their fault that "companies like NI make crappier and crappier equipment because we refuse to speak up and let the newbies say its great" I believe whiskey said something along those lines when he was saying that thats one of his millions of points. Either way, let the "newbies" speak, if they say something wrong it will get corrected. And they aren't the only ones allowed to speak on equipment. There are so many other people on here who have experience with many other pieces of equipment that if somebody asks about a controller, the s2/s4 wont be the only ones that are talked about. And if the guy that asked about the controller buys an s2/s4 because 25 out of 40 people that commented on his thread said the s2/s4, but didn't do any research, well thats on him.

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Originally Posted by numarkaddict

I understand what your saying, but if somebody asks about the s2 shouldn't everybody who's used an s2 get to talk about it? If they're asking "should I get an s2 or s4?" then what's the problem with them saying "oh I like the s2, it's worth the money."

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because they don't know what they're talking about, saying its a "good" controller is not absolute, it's relative. If they haven't used lots of other gear, they have nothing to compare it to, and are speaking from an uninformed position. The issue is that these people have started to outnumber the people who actually know what they're talking about, and because of this, they're growing exponentially.

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Originally Posted by numarkaddict

Of course I see the problem with somebody who's only used an s2 saying it's the greatest thing ever. But if they only have 6 months experience but has used a variety of equipment should we just throw their opinion out because they're a "newbie"?

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Yes. In 6 months, I don't care how much equipment you've used, you haven't learned about DJing itself enough to speak against someone who's used the same gear for 10 years. Like I've said, new DJs are like teenagers who think they know more than their parents. I was like that too until I figured it all out.

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Originally Posted by numarkaddict

Either way, let the "newbies" speak, if they say something wrong it will get corrected. And they aren't the only ones allowed to speak on equipment. There are so many other people on here who have experience with many other pieces of equipment that if somebody asks about a controller, the s2/s4 wont be the only ones that are talked about. And if the guy that asked about the controller buys an s2/s4 because 25 out of 40 people that commented on his thread said the s2/s4, but didn't do any research, well thats on him.

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Right there, this is going right over your head. There's no "corrected", because of the anonymity of the internet. Some kid who's been spinning for two weeks has his name show up just the same as a guy who's used every controller ever. When the expert "corrects" the newbie, the score is 1 to 1, even though the expert has 500 times the knowledge behind what he's saying.

And it's not JUST on him, what I keep explaining is that it affects the scene. He breeds more new DJs who will buy S2/S4s by not knowing what he's talking about, but suggesting it. The more NI/ whatever shitty company sells of their S2/S4/whatever other overpriced shitty controller, the more encouraged they'll be to make their new gear more like that.

Free market economics and voting with your patronage matter in the DJ scene a lot.

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Originally Posted by KS2

Not read all of this, but if an S4 is good enough for Locodice/Hawtin its good enough for anyone (I know they don't always use one).

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Not that the S4's a bad controller, but when have EITHER of those artists used one? I'm honestly curious. I know Hawtin's been using x1s, a xone 92, and maschine for ages now and Loco Dice's setup was posted on the blog a few weeks back.

Traktor is pro software, used by many pros
NI soundcards are pro, used by many pros
S2 has both these built in. it's not a toy (which doesn't mean toys aren't using them)

I think traktor is moving in the right direction, they bring out a mixer (z2) instead of another "shitty all in one" and introduce post fader fx into their software.

You're saying there is a problem...

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Originally Posted by whiskeyflip

The more NI/ whatever shitty company sells of their S2/S4/whatever other overpriced shitty controller, the more encouraged they'll be to make their new gear more like that.

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...but there isn't one. Quite the opposite is actually happening in the real world

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Originally Posted by MaxOne

Traktor is pro software, used by many pros
NI soundcards are pro, used by many pros
S2 has both these built in. it's not a toy (which doesn't mean toys aren't using them)

I think traktor is moving in the right direction, they bring out a mixer (z2) instead of another "shitty all in one" and introduce post fader fx into their software.

You're saying there is a problem...

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Nah, the Z2 is a great idea, same with the F1. Modular=great. Build quality for the Z2 also improved, but clearly only because it's a hardware mixer, and harder to get away with making cheaply. It's even NOT overpriced. I really praise the Z2 a lot, but I know it's a fluke, and is only because they're trying to appeal to a market that wouldn't put up with build quality like the S2/S4/F1.

But, what you're missing is that NI's moving in the WRONG direction with their intentionally locked-down business strategy. They literally won't let you map the remix decks to any controller besides the F1, so that you'll have to buy it, claiming basically that they were so inept that they "developed the hardware and software so closely that they can't figure out how to map it with anything else". But then they are perfectly able to give access to it's features to the Z2... A new piece of hardware. Plus there's the whole fiasco with the HID mode with the pio CDJS, and them not letting you map most of the controls, even though they are already sending and receiving messages successfully, just so that you can't map controls for two decks on to one CDJ.... That's just as much Pio's fault as NI's though.

I praise them for finally creating a slip mode (flux), even though they knew it wasn't something they could get away with locking down to sell more gear, because it's literally just a toggle. They did come as close as they could though in intentionally not adding any visual feedback to it whatsoever, so that you have to have a free LED on your controller AND know how to do advanced mapping in order to tell if you're in slip mode or not, if you don't have a Z2.

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Originally Posted by keeb

Not that the S4's a bad controller, but when have EITHER of those artists used one? I'm honestly curious. I know Hawtin's been using x1s, a xone 92, and maschine for ages now and Loco Dice's setup was posted on the blog a few weeks back.

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Saw a picture on one of their instagram of them getting a setup ready with the s4 in it. Whether they used it at the gig or not I don't know but they used it nonetheless.

SBTRKT used one in his Boiler Room too.

I hope he gets the message.

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Whiskeyflip,

By calling newbies inept and saying they should bow to the superior knowledge of veterans whilst also saying that every veteran here is taking part in a 'circle jerk' (google that if you dare, dear reader) AND calling the mods mall cops, I think you've successfully managed to insult every single forum member here.

This, in my view, is grounds for a ban. You may say that I've been looking for a reason, and that's true, because you have added precisely nothing to this community while trash talking pretty much everyone. I have no doubt that, following your repeated refusals to disclose your former usernames, you will return to this community you so deride under another pseudonym. If you do, please take note that your attitude was universally disliked here, and if it does not improve you will continue not to be taken seriously.

Best of luck in all your endeavours,

FEP.

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They are two different points being made. They are exclusive from each other

1) don't recommend the s2/s4 it's shitty and will make ni carry on making shitty controllers (it hasn't)

2) ni are locking their software and hardware.

Re point 2, whatever... I got no issue with that. NI created the traktor remix decks, they created the f1 to work with it. You want something they created, you give them the money via buying an f1. That's their business.

Does serato work with out hardware? No.

Well I would continue to defend myself but whiskey has been banned, but I will say this:

Throwing out the opinions of somebody who has used a variety of equipment (regardless of time actually dj'ing) is downright ignorant. Yes, you should "value" (for lack of a better term) the opinion of somebody who has 10 years experience with all sorts of equipment more than the DJ with 6 months, but dont throw out the opinion of somebody with 6 months experience and has used that same equipment. Because he can still tell you about that equipment, what he did and didn't like about it, and if (in his opinion) it's worth the money.

And who slams a brands equipment on a website that sells that brands equipment? lol.

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Originally Posted by numarkaddict

Well I would continue to defend myself but whiskey has been banned, but I will say this:

Throwing out the opinions of somebody who has used a variety of equipment (regardless of time actually dj'ing) is downright ignorant. Yes, you should "value" (for lack of a better term) the opinion of somebody who has 10 years experience with all sorts of equipment more than the DJ with 6 months, but dont throw out the opinion of somebody with 6 months experience and has used that same equipment. Because he can still tell you about that equipment, what he did and didn't like about it, and if (in his opinion) it's worth the money.

And who slams a brands equipment on a website that sells that brands equipment? lol.

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yup, and just because someone has been spinning or producing for 10 years doesn't make them automatically more knowledgeable than someone with 6 months to a year under their belt. some old timers get stuck in their ways and are a bit jaded, while some newer users are eager to learn, open to ideas, and ready to expand their skills.

i know a dude who has been at it for almost 13 years, only spins vinyl, and constantly trainwrecks harmonically incompatible songs over and over again. he's also never produced a track that wasn't horribly dissonant, yet he's the first person to go on about how all other djs that use laptops are terrible and are stealing his gigs. that's probably more of an exception to the rule, but i'm just sayin.