Midi Mid Life Crisis!

I feel terrible to say this...but I think I made a mistake choosing a midi set-up!

ARGH!

Let me explain. When I discovered that I wanted to do DJing, I was torn between cdj and midi. What made me choose midi?

1. Cost. Cdjs just seemed too expensive.

2. Sigh...the ease. Pre-syncing the bpm, 8 frigging cue points, all sorts of extra features...it was so obvious. So much more can be done with Traktor, and it can be learned so much more easily.

Now that I have been DJing for almost 6 months now...I feel like I have invested in the wrong set-up. I have Traktor Pro, an Akai APC40 which is fully mapped, and an LPD8. I also have an audio 4 dj as well as an audio 2 for back-up.

I feel now that I should have invested in cdj. Reasons being

1. !!! CLUBS USE CDJS !!! This is the main reason! I play progressive/trance /electro house, which is CLUB music. I have zero interest in playing at house parties, the main place where I can see myself playing is a club, and that's about it. Hauling in this huge piece of junk to hook up to a mixer along with a laptop, and lpd8...what a pain in the ass. Making sure the sound levels are even if mixing in and out. Club owners discriminate against midi-users. There are so many factors as to why bringing my set-up is a pain in the ass.

2. Clear mind! I don't want to constantly stare at a laptop, at a frigging screen. I am tired of looking at a screen. DJing is a musical hobby, not a computer hobby! The classic DJ set-up just looks so...great! Buttons and knobs and the disc of course! All audio! It looks great from the audience perspective compared to pressing some buttons and knobs and staring at a computer. Using actual cds!

3. Zero transportation issues! Headphones, cd binder...what else is there? So clear and fresh and...agh so nice! Just go to a club with a small bag and that's it.

4. Actually learning to properly beat-match! Actually learning to use/spin the disc! No confusion between deck A and B!

I need to calm down lol, but this is very concerned as I've invested a LOT into the midi set-up. If I exclude everything non-midi (ex. headphones, speakers, etc.). I will have spent... practically 800$! At most, if I were to sell some of it, I could get back about...maybe 300? I wouldn't sell traktor or the audio 2, but the rest would go. As a university student working part-time at not far from min. wage that also needs to pay for his ridiculous tuition costs, that concerns me.

Anyway, cdjs don't seem all that perfect, the flaws I dislike are:

1. Lack of cue points. #1 no way am I buying a cdj-1000. The rest of the cdjs however, seem to lack cue points. I really dislike this as I rely on my cue points very heavily; I really love to get songs in and out on perfect timings. On one hand, this would force me to learn my music more. On the other hand, I don't know if I need extra work, school is enough mentally already.

2. Cost of course.

3. Harder to use and less options, hence mixes might be more basic. I am not an effects DJ anyway, but this is a factor.

ANYWAY, phew.

What do you guys think?

ah, the 6 month itch, lol.

what's brought this on?

and not all clubs discriminate against midi. i'm starting a weekly gig next thursday running midi. the owner loved what i do and wanted me back for that reason. (have to give up some credit to DeeperBreed for helping with this)

traktor scratch pro=best of both worlds
you get to use your cdj's yet still have all your cue points effects etc...
all you would have to take a club is your laptop,soundcard,timecode cd's

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Originally Posted by BradCee

ah, the 6 month itch, lol.

what's brought this on?

and not all clubs discriminate against midi. i'm starting a weekly gig next thursday running midi. the owner loved what i do and wanted me back for that reason. (have to give up some credit to DeeperBreed for helping with this)

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I was just thinking of the actual process of playing at a club. What concerns me the most is the scenario of me having to go after another DJ, and bring in all my gear, get everything set up so that the volume is all good and everything is equal to the previous track, bpm, all that. Not to mention the transportation of lugging this thing around. I know for a fact that I intend on either playing in clubs maybe once every 2-3 months during school, or not DJing at all because my music really isn't suitable for non-clubs. CDJs seem so much more...easier.

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Originally Posted by CassoIVchoon

traktor scratch pro=best of both worlds
you get to use your cdj's yet still have all your cue points effects etc...
all you would have to take a club is your laptop,soundcard,timecode cd's

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Seems ideal but defeats the purpose of ease of mind with setting up #1, #2 simplicity, #3 no screen.

I'd rather get the benefits of all midi or just get the benefits of only cdj.

think you've been listening to too many pioneer fanboys

the cd is a dead format, this is why poineer have turned their cdj's into expensive
Hid controllers,
having gigged with cd's i can tell you that one wallet of cd's is no good,
i used to carry 8, and theres the constant juggling to find the right wallet.
cd's get scratched, even tho i'm very carful, i've had many times where the cd sticks.

cdj's wear out, i've played clubs where you are basically playing with one deck as the other cdj keeps spitting discs out cause its motor can spin up.

punters love to grab the cdj jog wheel, and nearly always grab the currently play deck.

so i'll never go back to cds, but i've made life easier for myself, i've a laptop dedicated to djing, it, my soundcard, my external hd and all their power supplies are built into a record deck flightcase, so set up is one kettle lead, 2 audio leads and 2 midi leads.
cdj's are my laptop stand.

as for beatmatching, just un-map the sync buttons

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Originally Posted by rt24

I was just thinking of the actual process of playing at a club. What concerns me the most is the scenario of me having to go after another DJ, and bring in all my gear, get everything set up so that the volume is all good and everything is equal to the previous track, bpm, all that. Not to mention the transportation of lugging this thing around. I know for a fact that I intend on either playing in clubs maybe once every 2-3 months during school, or not DJing at all because my music really isn't suitable for non-clubs. CDJs seem so much more...easier.

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tbh i'm pretty sure you could squeeze your current gear into a tt flightcase.
put a power strip under the controllers with a power supply for laptop/apc/soundcard, leave it all connected inside, then have power strip cable trailing out, with audio cable and usbs. then you'd only have 5 things to plug in. unless you also used a usb hub, then 3. (i'm assuming you use internal mode?)

transport would be easy enough then, it's all good to go in the box, and would only take a couple of minutes to set-up. plus it'll look reasonably professional.

as for the sound levels, that is normal anyway. even if you used cds, you'd still have to match the gain of the starting track to current output, and then for all following tracks. whereas with traktor, match the master out once, and let auto gain do the rest.
to make this simpler i suggest, turning the gain on the channel you use right down, push the fader all way up, then fade in using gain knob on mixer until it all matches.

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Originally Posted by BradCee

tbh i'm pretty sure you could squeeze your current gear into a tt flightcase.
put a power strip under the controllers with a power supply for laptop/apc/soundcard, leave it all connected inside, then have power strip cable trailing out, with audio cable and usbs. then you'd only have 5 things to plug in. unless you also used a usb hub, then 3. (i'm assuming you use internal mode?)

transport would be easy enough then, it's all good to go in the box, and would only take a couple of minutes to set-up. plus it'll look reasonably professional.

as for the sound levels, that is normal anyway. even if you used cds, you'd still have to match the gain of the starting track to current output, and then for all following tracks. whereas with traktor, match the master out once, and let auto gain do the rest.
to make this simpler i suggest, turning the gain on the channel you use right down, push the fader all way up, then fade in using gain knob on mixer until it all matches.

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Yeah I use a usb hub so it's fairly easy once it's all set up, problem is just setting up. Will take a good...while to set up for sure. I also have this weird thing that sometimes I have restart traktor for the volume to kick in, however with enough bad-scenario testing that shouldn't be a problem. I do have a case and everything as well...it's just lugging it around that might be a pain.

Yeah the gains are really what concerned me. I was doing manual gains but I found it to still be off when using the LEDs. I am considering just saying screw it and getting platinum notes so I don't have to worry about that junk. The only issue would be making sure that the output is the same as the song I am transitioning from (the other djs song on the cdj), but I suppose all I need to do is match the LEDs on the mixer so that's all good. I use a decible meter as well so that will ensure I don't go outrageously off anyway...

My set-up is certainly do-able...just a bit awkward, which makes me reconsider.

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Originally Posted by rt24

My set-up is certainly do-able...just a bit awkward, which makes me reconsider.

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i wouldn't say awkward. yeah there's going to a bit of weight. even my vci/dicers/laptop/cables all in a bag have some weight, but still lighter than my old vinyl bag.

i can appreciate the 'cold-feet' over some of the logistics of it all, had it myself and considered just burning my tracks to cds, use the vci at home and play out with cds. but once you've done the setting up a few times it isn't all that bad.

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Originally Posted by rt24

What concerns me the most is the scenario of me having to go after another DJ, and bring in all my gear, get everything set up so that the volume is all good and everything is equal to the previous track, bpm, all that. Not to mention the transportation of lugging this thing around.

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Two solutione:
1. Be there before the club opens, hook everything up properly - and wait.
2. Learn how to handle a CDJ and learn hot to work with this supposedly dead format which is still standard in many clubs all over.
I love my Midi, but sometimes, I really don't feel like showing up at 10pm for my 90 minutes starting at 2am, just to hook up my traktor gear properly without annoying the DJ that is playing while I fiddle around with cables on the mixer.

I really dislike this "ignore the dead format" thinking. I mean, Vinyl is in theory a dead format as well, and still there's countless new releases every week and countless people still use it. Books are old technology, for crying out loud. Can't hurt to know how to handle those old tech dinosaurs, eh? Sometimes it can make your life a lot easier.

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Originally Posted by BradCee

i wouldn't say awkward. yeah there's going to a bit of weight. even my vci/dicers/laptop/cables all in a bag have some weight, but still lighter than my old vinyl bag.

i can appreciate the 'cold-feet' over some of the logistics of it all, had it myself and considered just burning my tracks to cds, use the vci at home and play out with cds. but once you've done the setting up a few times it isn't all that bad.

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Yeah really that's what it is, cold feet. Doing a gig in a club seems somewhat intimidating as it is, having to set up non-standard doesn't help. If I were to make an analogy, it feels like I'm a 2nd grader who is using a tricycle while all my other friends are on skateboards... however my trike is a beastly tank once I start pushing the pedals. You are right though, it really doesn't seem that bad now, not worth giving up the benefits of midi at least...

At least the benefit of the APC40 being huge is that there IS some visual/looks more professional like you mentioned.

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Originally Posted by jimbob5000

Two solutione:
1. Be there before the club opens, hook everything up properly - and wait.
2. Learn how to handle a CDJ and learn hot to work with this supposedly dead format which is still standard in many clubs all over.
I love my Midi, but sometimes, I really don't feel like showing up at 10pm for my 90 minutes starting at 2am, just to hook up my traktor gear properly without annoying the DJ that is playing while I fiddle around with cables on the mixer.

I really dislike this "ignore the dead format" thinking. I mean, Vinyl is in theory a dead format as well, and still there's countless new releases every week and countless people still use it. Books are old technology, for crying out loud. Can't hurt to know how to handle those old tech dinosaurs, eh? Sometimes it can make your life a lot easier.

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Yeah on my list of dj-to-do's is to rent out a cdj system to learn how to connect my set-up as well as how to actually use it. I suppose that would take care of that..



Thanks for the responses so far guys, I feel better already. Now I can sleep knowing I didn't waste hundreds of dollars.

IMO, nothing is worse that trying to find the right CD in a dark booth with time on the currently running track running out.

That and the cdj-1000's randomly freezing and displaying arcane error messages.

A midi DJ setup isnt perfect but a year into using it i still dont want to go back.

This made me think midi only djs are like mobile djs lugging stuff around !

I think if its under a 3 hour set use cds if you doing the whole night take your midi rig !! then you got a chance to set up.


If you wana learn to beat match either grab some cheap second hand techs or cdjs


Thing is cdjs will not be dead anytime yet any club will need to keep plug and play devices in the booth it would be stupid not to.


All this midi stuff is cool but its abit geeky and you have to be very computer savvy to just mix

Alot of people just love the music NOT the gear!

The geeks seem to be taking over

Not yet :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by R2D2

All this midi stuff is cool but its abit geeky and you have to be very computer savvy to just mix

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only if you want to remap, if not then use a default tsi. and most of them are so labour unintensive you can run on a budget vista laptop without any issues and still have 'fun' mixing.
trust me. when i first got traktor 3 and vci, used the default tks and had done nothing in terms of optimization and it ran, well... ok, kinda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8zE44mUBJU

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Originally Posted by BradCee

only if you want to remap, if not then use a default tsi. and most of them are so labour unintensive you can run on a budget vista laptop without any issues and still have 'fun' mixing.
trust me. when i first got traktor 3 and vci, used the default tks and had done nothing in terms of optimization and it ran, well... ok, kinda.

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I here you I used a vci for a while got the firmware upgrade kit and overlay ect I had fun with the default / techtools tsi

You have a dual boot and most prob have done reg tweaks ect ect so you are extremely pc savvy :)

I used to have a triple boot of xp I fuck you not ! One for web ! One for production and one for Djing ( got that down to 12 processes tweaked to bones ) :o

but having to do all the above messed my flow life was simpler in the 90s ;)

Maybe Djs have been geeks all along I mean getting a boner about new vinyl and crate digging is abit that way :eek: just like getting a boner at a circuit board full of arcade buttons well maybe not lol

Start your gig on CD's and have a couple of long songs so you can get your midi set up going without being in the way of the DJ before you. Being six months in means more than likely you'll be the opening act anyway and by the time you move up the ladder you'll be comfortable setting up.

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Originally Posted by photojojo

Start your gig on CD's and have a couple of long songs so you can get your midi set up going without being in the way of the DJ before you. Being six months in means more than likely you'll be the opening act anyway and by the time you move up the ladder you'll be comfortable setting up.

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Oh wow that's a REALLY good idea.

Seems to be knowing how to use both cdj along with my midi (of course) makes the situation non-awkward.

@ OP: I know what you mean on the midi setup vs the club setup. I've spun in a club *once* and I definitely wasnt in a state of mind to rock the fucking crowd...I was more focused on the cramping of the booth...the gear acting weird and not being comfortable with my "musical" setup. I even brought a mouse...................the only shot of me in the booth is of me fucking around with the mouse. (GO "DJ").

The other guy came in and rocked the shit with his case of scribbled on CDs. BTW....I've seen the way CDs are treated....anybody ever been to an event where the CD skips?

But hey...what am I doing now? Remapping and thinking of how to adapt. For me its no question and we need to embrace the new technology. WE determine the future of the music...NOT the clubs.

@PHOTO....dude you always have really simple/great ideas!

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Originally Posted by R2D2

I used to have a triple boot of xp I fuck you not ! One for web ! One for production and one for Djing ( got that down to 12 processes tweaked to bones ) :o

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12 fucking processes?! OK....you have to show me how to do this with Win 7. I'd be forever thankful!

Which reminds me...we have a place to post maps here (a forum dedicated to it actually). We ought to have a place to post Windows profiles, dual-boot configs, etc.

Ean's video on setting up in a club was cool but I think we need a much more detailed updated one. I've googled and cant find much either.

Sidenote: Midi Midlife crisis always puts an image in my mind of some 50 year old who just ran out and spent like 5-10k on a Dual Otus system or shiny new S4 and Xone setup. vroooooooooooom-vrooooooooom!!!! :p

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Maybe Djs have been geeks all along I mean getting a boner about new vinyl and crate digging is abit that way :eek:

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so happy i wasn't in that record store with you!

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Originally Posted by R2D2

Maybe Djs have been geeks all along I mean getting a boner about new vinyl and crate digging is abit that way :eek: just like getting a boner at a circuit board full of arcade buttons well maybe not lol

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i wouldn't go that far... but yeah, even when it was the good ol' days of turntables & a mixer, and that was the only option really available (as cdjs were crap or way too expensive for something good) djs were a bit geeky.

I have to say that i agree with Jimbob5000. CD's certainly aren't a "dead format" (in my opinion), they are just a different format.

I would certainly recommend learning to mix on CDJ's and i'd even go as far as to say that you should also learn how to mix vinyl as well. Really gets you to know your stuff from grass roots level when you can 'physically' throw in a beat.

I've recently got into using a midi set up and i started with Ableton, an APC40 and an LPD8 (i also own a Novation Launchpad) and the problem i found was that the lack of a jog wheel really took something out of my performances so i have just ordered a Reloop Digital Jockey to use with Traktor as i feel this will give me both a sense of being more involved in the mix by having a jog wheel to lay my hands on, and also the ability to remain in the digital mixing scene.

What ever happens dont give up on a midi set up as i feel the positives far out weigh the negatives (the constant burning of CD's was a real pain and carrying 2 record bags of approx 100 vinyls to and from a gig is no small task). Just find a set up that suits you and your music style!!

Not sure if this is of any use to you but thought i'd have my say.

Jon

WARNING WALL OF TEXT :p

Hey rt24 I have set up in clubs and bars for club nights and gigs using my midi setup countless times and i have to admit when i first started doing this i felt how you did nervous and unsure of what i was doing and in a way yes lol i did feel like i was on a tricycle while they were on all there cool gear and everyone was watching me like WHAT THE FUCK haha but honestly if you were to look at your set up and break it down to what you actually need to plug in to the mixer its one cable from your sound card and thats it and the thing is people actually dig the controllers even if they give you crap lol there just intimidated and jealous of your awesome setup screw them and just have fun :p

The way i setup is before i leave from home to the gig i make sure i turn my macbook off (i do this every time just to be on the safe side when i play and by doing this iv never had 1 issue come up in the past year and a half playing at clubs with my setup) and just have my macbook and VCI 100 arcade and Audio8 along with any cables i need in my bag.

As soon as i get into the club ill chuck my bag under the DJ booth until say 10-15 mins before i play then i just make my way to the booth and just let the dj on know im just getting my gear setup and i havent had one person turn me down saying no :D just be cool about it and you will be sweet.

I will get my macbook out place it to the side along with my controller and sound card and ill just hook up all my gear up together before i even try hook my soundcard up to the Mixer (usually there is always some space but sometimes when there is a cramped booth its hard haha but practice doing this with minimal space and you wont have a problem) This takes less then 2-3 minutes but depending how slow or quick you do it ;) i then turn on my macbook and test and make sure every thing is working fine eg headphone's through the sound card etc once i know everythings ready ill wait till the dj before me is on his last song.

I will usually talk to him and coordinate it all so that the last song plays on the CDJ furtherest away from me. Once thats done all i do is unplug the CDJ rca's closest to me and plug it into my soundcard and im good to go (or plug in my own cables into the mixer if thats easier but always remember to plug things back exactly the way they were if you unplug something) I will usually have a track that will mix in well with what ever they are playing so il keep the volume low and slowly try match it to there tracks volume takes through my headphones and the main mixer takes me less then 30 secs once you get it down good :)

After that your good as gold :D if you were to break all of the above down into simple steps haha i guess it would be like this.

1. Turn all gear off and pack away in gear bag.
2. Place gear bag in dj booth safely untill 10-15 mins before hand.
3. Unpack gear and plug my gear together and test to see if all works good.
4. Coordinate change over and plug sound card to mixer.
5. Correct sounds and your good to go.

I can do all the above in less then 5 mins easy in a club but i always give my self extra time just incase and never listen to haters if they have nothing good to say no need to take notice of them and just be confident in what you do cause how many other people do this where you play? Haha hope that helped :cool:

Ok, to add a little perspective from someone who had the same kinda midi life crisis not long back.

I began DJing with Traktor using a VCI, after some time I decided it was time to have a go at playing out. My wife asked a friend and who managed a club and later that night I turned up with digital gear. The booth was super super small and it was difficult to set up... I was lucky enough to not have to beatmatch to the outgoing CDJ DJ for as luck would have it, it was a gay club and every hour or so they had a drag show.... so there I am setting up in this booth, trying to run my cables so as to avoid the tranni tripping on them, to make a short story shorter.... I began playing and just as i was mixing into the second song i lost the connection with Traktor due to shitty usb cable connection.... I quickly signaled the other DJ and he came back and took back over...

Lessons learned... proper preparation... Quality USB cables ( I know have 6 from DJTT)

So, although I had failed in one respect, I had also made a step forward into realizing my dream of playing out, although embarrassed, I was also proud that I had taken that step.

Ok, So now I had a taste.. and I wanted more... There are plenty of places for me to play in Bali and when I went to clubs to ask, DJ's would stand aside a gesture to the CDJS inviting me to play.. at this point I would mention I had digital gear and this was often met with a confused look. Around this time I had been introduced by a friend to one of Indonesia's most renowned DJ's. He was nice enough to take the time and listen to the first mix I made.(http://soundcloud.com/jukai) :)
He got back back to me a few days later and told me he liked it, his advice was that I should learn to play what I had produced using CDJ's, this wasn't expressed in an arrogant way, he was aware of my aspirations to play regularly in Indonesia and he felt this could be faster achieved by learning CDJS.

So for a while I umed and arred about it, and one day when I decided that I was sick of listening to myself talk about it, I went out a got CDJ 900's and a DJM800. This as it turns out, was one of the better things I have ever done. It wasn't long before I could beatmatch comfortably, Although I had been using sync with Traktor, I found that had attained knowledge via mediums such as DJTT and Traktor that proved usefull. Eg. by setting beatgrids, this goes a long way in the understanding and implemantation of beatmatching.

So again the time came for me to play out, I friend invited me to play at his club, I burnt some CD's and turned up.... Played on his CDj800's and had an absolute fukin Blast.... For me I just love the feel of playing CDJ's I love pitch bending and beatmatching, theres just something there that feels good for me. Saying that I havnt turned my back on Digital DJing, not even for a second... If im using my digital setup (2 MF's and VCI) I almost feel compelled to make my sets more technical or more involved, sometimes this does my head in because of the creativity that is at hand, and whilst playing I think of guys like ean ad now the likes of Zac who one the MF contest, and to be honest it makes me feel like a bit of a gimp. Whoever said that Digital djing was easy, has never really given it enough time to realize its potential.

All in all, my point being that I enjoy both sides of the fence.... I love spinning on my CDjs, it keeps me busy and I just love the overall feel.. Its like im busy but relaxed with the flow at the same time... just mixing A-B and getting into it. Then I have my digital gear, take for instance that for the last three days ive been trying to make a new mixed tape using Traktor.... this is doing my head in, im going nowhere because I guess I have such A high expectation of how it should sound in comparison to say if I were to make a mix with my CDJ's. If im to present this mixed tape to my CDJ playing friends I want to make sure there is an aspect there that isnt attainable using CDJ's, call it education if you will.

So for now my set up at home is 2 cdj's for two channels (not connected to Traktor) and my MF'd in deckalized mode for the other 2 channells. Like I said, for me its 2 different feelings and approaches.... I might mix beatmatching a few track then feel like I want to do some three deck mixing and swapp to traktor...

If you arnt in the positon that you can really afford the CDJ's then is stick with your Digital set up (dont sell it). You could begin by finding a DJ school or somewhere that will let you play there CDJ's... honestly once you put in a little time you wont have to own a set... just play every so often on then...

Build your sets using traktor at home then practice transposing it to CDJ....