Why is all music in sets of 4? (4 beats,4 bars) i was having this discussion last night, and while i came to my own conclusion, im interested to hear others thoughts.
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Why is all music in sets of 4? (4 beats,4 bars) i was having this discussion last night, and while i came to my own conclusion, im interested to hear others thoughts.
I think its because of the classical music formulas and because it feels natural to dance at that rate. But then again it may only be that way because of what we've been taught.
Not all music is in sets of four. True, the majority is but there are also some great tunes that aren't.
Look around :)
well yea i came to this conclusion also. like the waltz for example, where we have a 3x3 beat deal. its a whole lot more complicated for the mind tho, and requires speacial dance lessons, which i put down to it feeling unnatural. but as foreverhex said im not 100% sure if we have been conditioned this way or if there is some base humanness that requires a 4x4 beat.Quote:
Originally Posted by misha_val
and noone say chicken or egg because thats just lazy, i wanna know what the chicken and egg represent in this situation
I simply believe its math, check this out on wiki...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_and_mathematics
thats all very well, but i could say "its just maths" as an explanation for why i have hands. perhaps i need to make the master-question more specific. i need to think for a min or two :D
I believe a core principal to 'a lot of' dance music is about creating a state of trance, much like tribal music of older cultures (very similar concept tbh, rhythmic drumming + drugs).
Because 4x4 rythems The maths is simpler, or at least more constant & most importantly, its always divisible by 2 which means its got a constant hit that you can always sync to. Since dance music is made for inducing this state of trance, a 3x3 timing which creates odd time beats (3,9,15,21 etc) would can easily put you out of sync breaking this sense of trance.
'Most' dance music atm effectively has a constant 1,2,1,2 pattern, be it with the kicks (house/electro) or more with the snares (Dubstep/DnB/Breaks/Garage) for this reason.
I don't think you need to link this back to a base human condition as the basic premise the the maths is simpler and more sync able for creating a trance explains why its essentially required for dance music,.. though you could.... human heartbeat being the most obvious one.
Creating some 3x3 rave music would be interesting.... would really fuck with peoples heads.. hmmmmm
plenty of 3x3 and 3x4 dance music out there, or just "shuffled beat" music
Schaffel beat is pretty common. Goldfrapp, Skinny Puppy, T. Raumscmiere, Superpitcher, Electronicat, and songs like
iggy pop - nightclubbing
depeche mode - personal jesus
covenant - like tears in rain
and one - wasted
--------------
However, i think it's the rock n' roll influence that flooded in disco and became incorporated in the early days of house/techno music that came to the naturally accepted 4/4 rhythms in dance music.
I think it's less of a "it has to be that way" and more of a "it's generally accepted to produce in those rhythms"
3/4, 3/3 and Schaffel are perfectly fun and dance-able! (you guys can't tell me you havn't seen dancefloors packed to 'personal jesus!')
Quote:
Originally Posted by midian
i think my conclusion basically came down to symmetry. 1-2 2-4 4-8 8-16 16-32
doubles doubles doubles. and yea the base symmetry is in fact 2 not 4. and the symmetry of 3s isnt as simple(symmetrical) as 2 as in there are less possibilities.
i came about my conclusion the wrong way tho perhaps. i decided that it must be because we have 2 feet, 2 possibilities of ratation etc... but thats just human symmetry right there.
dont know how well i explained that but... rip it to bits :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
well if youre saying its not "it has to be that way" then i guess (i assume) youre saying its not due to nature. i think the symmetrys in 2x2(4x4) are more accessable than 3x3.
could i perhaps argue the less symmetry in music the less dancable it becomes?
I think the symmetry of 3 is perfectly natural. except with 3 you tend to think of them in doubles. one two three, two two three // three two three, four two three.
In fact, sometimes I find triplets more satisfying that 8th notes or 16th notes.
I love me some triplet eighth notes. ;)
triplets in sets of 4?Quote:
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
3/4 is probably a more common time signature than 3/3
sometimes you'll find 2/3-3/4, or 2/3-2/2.
strange time signatures happen. hehe
I was under the impression Schaffel was still 4x4?
3x3 & 3x4 are still very dance-able, in fact some ways even more so then house etc, they often have way more groove, I mean Swing is entirely based around them. And swing is all about getting up and dancing your ass off.
IMO they're just not as trance inducing as 4x4, which is why a think a lot of dance music, especially that which revolves around and stems from the heavy use of psychoactive drugs uses a lot of 4x4 beats, or in the case of DnB/Breaks uses the snares to replicate the same 1,2,1,2 feel that you get from 4x4.
But I think your right, its prob also largely an acceptance thing has made dance music this way.
ok. but can we agree that the 2x2 beat is the most accessable?
@midian: I think sure that's true of music that actually attempts to induce a trance, but MOST dance music is just about dancing. Not "a state of mind." Pop music wont that fight. =^P
@Kaon:
I think the 3/4 is the most accessable.
4/4 is just the most common.
the waltz is ridiculously fun to dance to!
OH!!!
easier to write music in 4/4
that's why. ;)
I think this is definately the case. eg complex time signatures such as 5/4, 7/4 & 9/8 imo wouldnt work as dance music, and especially mixed meter time signatures , eg 3x4 in one part then 4x4 in another makes the music become completely impossible to dance to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaon
3x3, 3x4 or anything divisible by 2 or 3 are dancable, 3 patterns are more lilting which gives them more swing or groove, and 4x4 are more rhythmic or trance inducing which is why I think they are more often used as 'rave' music.
Ok I take back 'dance music' as your completely right, poor choice of phrase on my part.Quote:
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
Most 'rave' music revolves around that. Basically everything that stems from house > acid house > dnb/electro/etc/etc.
3x4 is probably more dance inducing then 4x4 due to the groove which I guess makes it more accessible ?
is this because repetition and symmetry are more accessable?Quote:
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
3/4 beat is still related to 4, but not 2. its important to me but im not sure why.Quote:
Originally Posted by RSDJMoniker
can you breifly explain the 3/4?
They are easier to write music to. ..Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaon
Use of the word accessible is somewhat misleading. Accessible to dance to, listen to or to create?
all of the aboveQuote:
Originally Posted by midian
p.s rusko tommora biatch :D
accessable? seriously, i think you need to explain what you mean by this.
is it EASIER? yes. drop a drum kick on 1, 2, 3, 4. a high hat on the up-beat, and a snare on 2 and 4.
Hold down the arpeggiator in the Vanguard.
instant trance music.
Wikipedia explains it as follows.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaon
In a simple time signature, each beat is divided into two equal parts. Typically, therefore, each beat has the value of a non-dotted note.
The upper number indicates how many beats there are in a bar;
The lower number indicates the note value which represents one beat (the "beat unit").
The most common simple time signatures are 2/4, 3/4, and 4/4. The 4 at the bottom indicates that the beat unit is the quarter note or crotchet. For example, 3/4 means three quarter-note beats per measure.
ok accessable. wrong word. ok ill unleash the true nature of my questioning
im trying to map out conscious reality and im trying to suss the importance of symmetry within the functions of the brain. hard to explain in such a short manner. thought of this while listening to cicadas-always varying the "beat" of their communication, which they use to make other insects aware of them. so they can get laid :D
comes from my theory that we exist due to "awareness" and "communication" (in less than human states) evolving symbiotically
The golden ratio, commonly understood as the mathmatical representation of beauty...
3 : 4 : 5
1 : 4/π : 1.61899
The most important numbers in nature to understand beauty.
Three and 4 i believe are equally beautiful, just like 5.
yea golden ratio is the shizzle! its prolly what sparked this line of questioning for me. but is the ratio part of our brain and thus effects the way we perceive reality? or part of all nature (or all life to be precice)?
chicken or the egg? :p
I think the Egg came out of a dinosar, and thats how we got the chicken.
yeah, the asteroid pooped out a dinosaur who them pooped out a chicken. and then man found chicken. and he said "give me 11 herbs and spices!" and then man ate chicken. and it was good.
im just asking myself questions now lol. shouldnt have dropped the bombshell :rolleyes:
BOOOOOM! and then there was
I THOUGHT,
I thought id plant a feather, and a chicken would grow.
8.000000073 is my favourite number
Would be interesting to see someone play around with the timing of their track/mix, changing the time signature (is that the right way to say it?) during the track, a rewind inbetween and a different tempo for the masses to wrap their heads around
Not an uncommon concept in schaffel.
3/4--3/4--3/4--4/4 is the most common notation.
Regularly do double-tempo tricks. My favourite was The Verve "Bittersweet Symphony" mixed over Dillinja "Silver Blade". At 78/156 bpm they match lovely.Quote:
Originally Posted by bulzi_navoir
Swapping fro 4/4 to 3/4 tempos is fun and keeps the crowd guessing, especially if you can find a loop that doesn't give any clues where the beat starts.
explain?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumblejazz
Venetian Snares uses a lot of weird timing. 7/8 to be precise, but each phrase is ended with 2 bars of 4/4 to create an overall signature of 4/4. Interesting trick which enables it to be mixed with 4x4.
3x4 & 4x4 can be mixed if you mix on the measures rather then the beats and you get a weird syncopated rhythm going on. You just need mad EQ skills or it sounds like ass biscuits. Far easier with digital, much harder on TTs.
3x3 cannot really be mixed with 4x4, unless you do a weird cut/s or use a rewind to drop it in.
I'm going to try some stuff out with a dubstep track im working on. 3/4 bass rhythm countered by a 4/4 beat... or perhaps the other way round. Could be interesting.
Ride the pitch!! Any mix is possible if you just ride that pitch. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by midian