Harmonic Mixing – Am I missing something?

I tried getting into this a while back using the Mixshare Rapid Evolution software (freeware) as I have always relied on my own ear and thought it would be interesting to see if this added anything to my sets.

I found Harmonic mixing restricted my sets as I was missing certain amazing mixes I would have picked up on without looking at what track can go into another according to the Camelot wheel.

I ditched the Rapid Evolution and have gone back to just learning my tracks and playing about with each one to see what fits etc. If a song is slightly out of key, I just change the pitch on Traktor and have found some incredible sounding mixes I would have missed out on if I had stuck with the Camelot wheel.

I also found that some tracks mix well according to the key of the track when the Camelot wheel shows that this shouldn’t work. Does this mean the Camelot wheel is flawed or am I missing something?

Harmonic Mixing helps you at some level, but just because they are in the same key doesn't mean they won't clash. It still ends up sounding good or bad together. Some songs won't blend good whatever you do.

It's a tool, nothing else. You shouldn't feel constrained by it,

If you feel the next tune is right, bang it on, don't dodge it because 'the Camelot wheel says it won't work'.

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Originally Posted by crumarbit

I found Harmonic mixing restricted my sets as I was missing certain amazing mixes I would have picked up on without looking at what track can go into another according to the Camelot wheel.

I also found that some tracks mix well according to the key of the track when the Camelot wheel shows that this shouldn’t work. Does this mean the Camelot wheel is flawed or am I missing something?

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This is exactly why I dislike the mixed in key hype on here and there's a thread about it every other day with people saying the same thing. It's overrated and for most people seems to be more of a detriment that a useful tool, just ditch it and use your ears. I've yet to be impressed by a set that religiously uses it and I think there are a number of things to consider when choosing a track and the camelot wheel notation is the last of them.

Exactly. The whole concept seems bizarre to me.
I've seen people saying that they sort their tunes by the key they're in?!
Just play the tunes, if somethings not right you should be listening enough to notice and sort it.

I found it insanely limiting, even more so when you bare in mind the error margin is quite large. Here's my system. Pick a track that might work, listen in the headphones? Does it work? No? Pick another. Yes? Mixing time. :D

Btw- the Camelot wheel (or the circle of fifth for dummys as if should be known) isn't technically flawed but there's more to mixing than just keys and the detection software isn't all that.

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Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

I found it insanely limiting, even more so when you bare in mind the error margin is quite large. Here's my system. Pick a track that might work, listen in the headphones? Does it work? No? Pick another. Yes? Mixing time. :D

Btw- the Camelot wheel (or the circle of fifth for dummys as if should be known) isn't technically flawed but there's more to mixing than just keys and the detection software isn't all that.

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This, someone should write an article for the blog or digital dj tips- "10 reasons why you shouldn't use mixed in key"

I feel like a lot of the hype around mixed in key is straight from the company to sell the software and then there is this tendency of blogs to talk favorably about anything new that comes to the table that sounds like a good idea regardless of if it is actually helpful or detrimental in practice.

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Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

I found it insanely limiting, even more so when you bare in mind the error margin is quite large. Here's my system. Pick a track that might work, listen in the headphones? Does it work? No? Pick another. Yes? Mixing time. :D

Btw- the Camelot wheel (or the circle of fifth for dummys as if should be known) isn't technically flawed but there's more to mixing than just keys and the detection software isn't all that.

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Harmonic mixing principles only apply when there is melodic content in both track segments (i.e. mixing melodies). Much current music has little melodic content.

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Originally Posted by Xonetacular

This, someone should write an article for the blog or digital dj tips- "10 reasons why you shouldn't use mixed in key"

I feel like a lot of the hype around mixed in key is straight from the company to sell the software and then there is this tendency of blogs to talk favorably about anything new that comes to the table that sounds like a good idea regardless of if it is actually helpful or detrimental in practice.

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Mixed In Key is just one source for harmonic mixing information. The most reliable key information comes from musicians who manually key each track.

Exactly. There's so much more to it than that.

well technically you should mix in key to have your mixes sounds good together. Mixed in Key is just a software to analyze your songs key. Still you shouldn't limit yourself with the keys all over.

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Originally Posted by DJMM

Still you shouldn't limit yourself with the keys all over.

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whaaa?

yeah bad sentence, I mean you shouldn't worry if the next song is 5A on camelot wheel and the playing song is 4A.

If it sounds good from 2A to 6A, just mix it.

Great, thanks for the feedback on this. I was just thinking i was missing something but surely, if it sounds good to the ear then it probably is (unless stone deaf!)

Going back to enjoying the tunes and forgeting the silly little numbered alphabet :D

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Originally Posted by mrpopinjay

here's my system. Pick a track that might work, listen in the headphones? Does it work? No? Pick another. Yes? Mixing time. :d

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this

This all boils down to a sign of the times. When it was records we would write keys on them so harmonic mixing definitely isn't new. Back then though we only had 100 records to go through at a gig because we did the prep work before hand. Now that we can have 1000's of tracks at our disposal it's much harder to pick a track, especially if you don't really know your music which is a nasty result of having 1000's of tracks. So software like MIK has come about that culls the songs down for you so you're only picking from 200 tracks to play next instead of blankly staring at your track collection.

Some people don't realize the amount of behind the scenes work that goes into just playing music. They want software to do all of that work for them and it just doesn't work like that, or at least it doesn't work well imo. All that said I use MIK to tag all of my tracks, but it just serves as a guide.

Well, I can honestly say that this has taken my mixing one step further down the quality line.

I mean, due to knowing how to do it now manually (Used to catch it in the past purely by accident) and at will, you can hear when someone does not do it instantly.

So I know that when I do use it and use it when its needed, my mix WILL sound damn good.

It also allows you to get more creative.

If you are jamming 2 tracks that fit harmonically, it allows you to mashup instantly and you can go to town.

:)

Its nice to use if you have not setup a playlist before hand.

"Harmonic Mixing" isn't limiting. Only mixing by the circle of fifths is. And the people who tend to write about harmonic mixing using Camelot Notation don't know that there's any more to the story.

Ditch camelot notation.
Use real keys.
And actually start learning about music theory.

Also, I know it was probably a random example, but 2A to 6A would probably be safe-ish…it certainly isn't a sure thing…but it'd be more likely to work than some other random choices, depending on what chords and scales were used in both songs. Then again, that's true for 1A to 2A as well.

Basically, MiK's marketing is made to sell overpriced software, not teach you how to mix harmonically. And everyone listens to their advice as though it's gospel. Which is bullshit.

Ok, probably should have said "Mixed in key and the wheelyjig is limiting" :P

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Originally Posted by mostapha

"Harmonic Mixing" isn't limiting. Only mixing by the circle of fifths is. And the people who tend to write about harmonic mixing using Camelot Notation don't know that there's any more to the story.

Ditch camelot notation.
Use real keys.
And actually start learning about music theory.

Also, I know it was probably a random example, but 2A to 6A would probably be safe-ish…it certainly isn't a sure thing…but it'd be more likely to work than some other random choices, depending on what chords and scales were used in both songs. Then again, that's true for 1A to 2A as well.

Basically, MiK's marketing is made to sell overpriced software, not teach you how to mix harmonically. And everyone listens to their advice as though it's gospel. Which is bullshit.

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Virtually all modern music uses the diatonic scale (do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do), which is represented by the Circle of Fifths (see [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_of_fifths"]Circle of fifths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame] Also see [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatonic_scale"]Diatonic scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

Using "real keys," rather than Camelot notation (based on the Circle of Fifths), is MUCH more difficult. Memorizing compatible keys based on diatonic key signature rather than keycodes GREATLY lengthens the learning curve.

"Harmonic Keys," which introduced harmonic mixing to the DJ community in the 1980's, advocated memorization of an overlay chart to select compatible mixes. Camelot streamlined the process in 1991 with our Easymix System, which makes selecting compatible keys as easy as telling time.

Learning music theory and keying your own music may be more effective, but may require THOUSANDS of hours to attain the skills necessary to key music with greater accuracy than key detection software like MixedInKey.

Further, you can mix 2A to 6A or any other combination as long as you mix atonal segments. Whenever both track segments contain tonal music, however, any such mixes will be dissonant unless they are harmonically compatible.

So wait, are you the guys who sell MIK?

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Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

So wait, are you the guys who sell MIK?

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Not at all. MIK is a relative newcomer to the harmonic mixing scene. Camelot has been keying music with professional musicians since the 1980's, and now offers an online harmonic mixing database with over 65,000 records at www.camelotsound.com. Please email camelotATgte.net for FREE trial access to this work-in-progress resource.

Thanks for asking!

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Originally Posted by Camelot

Virtually all modern music uses the diatonic scale (do-re-mi-fa-sol-la-ti-do), which is represented by the Circle of Fifths (see Circle of fifths - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Also see Diatonic scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Using "real keys," rather than Camelot notation (based on the Circle of Fifths), is MUCH more difficult. Memorizing compatible keys based on diatonic key signature rather than keycodes GREATLY lengthens the learning curve.

"Harmonic Keys," which introduced harmonic mixing to the DJ community in the 1980's, advocated memorization of an overlay chart to select compatible mixes. Camelot streamlined the process in 1991 with our Easymix System, which makes selecting compatible keys as easy as telling time.

Learning music theory and keying your own music may be more effective, but may require THOUSANDS of hours to attain the skills necessary to key music with greater accuracy than key detection software like MixedInKey.

Further, you can mix 2A to 6A or any other combination as long as you mix atonal segments. Whenever both track segments contain tonal music, however, any such mixes will be dissonant unless they are harmonically compatible.

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I'm sorry. I've known the real names for the circle of fifths since I was seven. I guess that's too hard for DJs. You're right. They should limit themselves and not know anything about what's going on and continue to listen to BS that while technically correct (mostly) says nothing relevant. Well…except for basically every fact in that post. They're all wrong in one way or another.

You're one of my pet peeves when it comes to DJs on the internet.

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Originally Posted by mostapha

I'm sorry. I've known the real names for the circle of fifths since I was seven. I guess that's too hard for DJs. You're right. They should limit themselves and not know anything about what's going on and continue to listen to BS that while technically correct (mostly) says nothing relevant. Well…except for basically every fact in that post. They're all wrong in one way or another.

You're one of my pet peeves when it comes to DJs on the internet.

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It pisses me off when people say 'mix harmonically'. It's like they're just looking for harmonic mixing rather than what sounds good. Annoyingly I have now started keying all the tracks I buy, but it's curiosity really... Most of the time I find they aren't 'harmonic' with the last track. Who gives a fuck?

[popcorn]Buttered and ready[/popcorn]

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Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

Here's my system. Pick a track that might work, listen in the headphones? Does it work? No? Pick another. Yes? Mixing time. :D

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Perfect system if you ask me!! And it works!! :D

Why thank you, it took a long time to carefully put together such a complex and delicate system ;)

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Originally Posted by geminimech

[popcorn]Buttered and ready[/popcorn]

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Condom at the ready, no need for lube. I'm having a poshy.

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Originally Posted by OmniRoss

Condom at the ready, no need for lube. I'm having a poshy.

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:O

Wow, an argument about nothing. Well done everybody.

We're programmed to find notes that are in the harmonic series consonant and notes that aren't disconsonant. Music theory is just a way to try and explain and communicate this fundamental fact.

So you can quite easily:
- try loads of records until you find one that works
- learn music theory, key your tracks so you don't have to try so many records
- learn the 'camelot system' (which is basically just a version of the circle of fifths aspirated for people like DJ's who don't need to know what key this track is in, and what key the next track is in, but rather 'what are the relative harmonic keys to this track') so you don't have to try so many records

...but at the end of the day your brain will tell you when it "goes" and when it "doesn't" (unless you're one of those DJ's who thinks it is OK to mix without headphones/monitor - in which case your audience will tell you).

Everyone appears to be arguing about what type of vehicle they used to get to the party when the important thing is actually that they got to the party on time.

People who haven't checked the songs go together (no monitor) or have blindly followed the camelot key may well end up at a crappy party a block away, but that's down to the incorrect use of the tools rather than the tools themselves.

it's all about night vision goggle mixing. it makes the mix better because it's made with night vision goggles on.

I actually would really love some night vision goggles. I mean the really expensive ones that actually work. It's be so fucking sweet. I'd turn off all the lights in the house and walk around in the dark pretending to be a spy.