Hello! Any advice for a rookie?

Hello everyone!

I'm new here, and to DJing in general, but am looking for a new hobby.

Okay... I know what you're thinking and might as well address it right now. I have no desire to be the next "David Guetta" or whatever, I want to do this as a *hobby*. Drunk people, traveling and live performances just aren't for me; that is not an aspiration of mine in any sense... if fate demands it, it would be a terribly awkward life transition for me to become a live DJ. I'll go out on a bit of a limb here just to be clear: I don't dislike David Guetta, I think he is talented and has made some good music; but that's not what I want to be.

I enjoy good music and think the concept of mixing music is intriguing. For probably 15 years I've listened to a wide variety of electronic music back to maybe the mid 90's with Orbital, Faithless, Bomfunk MC's, ATB and tons of other artists. MP3 wasn't a household term back then, and people hated electronic music. You listened to it with headphones on so you didn't have to hear to people complain and make mocking beeping noises at you.

Back then I was distracted with computers, and pretty much have been since that time. About 5 years ago one DJ in particular, DJ Kewlaid, released a series of mixes that really sparked my interest in mixing electronic music. His music selection was great and transitions were super smooth, really a pleasure to listen to. I'm not looking to mimic him (or vinyl probably would not be part of the equation) and what I am after is quite different from his style.

There are a lot of songs I'd like to mash up or mix together, where I like the intro from one but the vocals ruin the music they're so bad, or vice versa. With the accessibility to music on the Internet it would really be a wonderful thing to be able to manipulate it however I want.

So now that you understand my background, I was wondering if you guys can guide me a bit while I am thinking about this so I don't end up eyeball deep with a bunch of components and a realization that certain things cannot work together, are bad quality, or any of the other various negative outcomes.

After a bit of poking around, I understand most of what I might want but am not confident enough that things would work out. Most people making remarks about their turntables (here and plenty of other places) talk about SL1200s, which has sort of left me with the impression that they're the de facto standard. I understand some professionals or high-end enthusiasts might have really nice gear, but can you scratch with a pair of ATLP120s or something in the $200~$250 range? Extreme audiophile considerations aside, what are the practical differences between them? Also, how much would a straight/bent arm matter (probably with Serato, relative mode)?

Currently, I have no gear so I am looking at everything; I have an old mixer but it has a noisy crossfader. Can a solid setup with minimal issues be setup for the ballpark of $1300?

2x turntables, $250 ea <- ATLP120s? Your recommendation?
2x Time coded vinyl, $25 ea <- Recommendations?
1x mixer, ~$150[?] <- Any recommendations for a reasonable mixer in this price range?
1x Rane SL2, ~$500 <- I couldn't deal with hunting down vinyl or the constant expense, limited personal selection
Pair of dicers? ~$100 <- Something cheap/fun like this would be cool. If you don't like dicers, tell me what you do like

Are there any ongoing/hidden/missing costs? I've never touched a vinyl record, but have researched and seen that time coded vinyls can last years. Do needles need to be replaced? Does the direct drive system ever need to be serviced, or anything else I might not know?

I have a computer with a HT|OMEGA Claro card in it, much more than is required by Serato.

What am I missing, overlooking, or not understanding? What kinds of problems did you run into when you started? What problems have you seen other people have? The commitment is substantial, so it is important to me to tighten the plan up and be 100% sure it is a hobby I will enjoy for a long time. I'd love to hear everything you guys have to say, including constructive criticism of the setup or best practices for down the road, if I decide to do it.

This has been a long post and I thank you for reading!

First and formost, if your willing to spend this much money, you could buy a fairly high end controller (software included). However if you want to stick to the turntable route, here are my recommendations for your price ranges:

I haven't used atlp120s, so i have no idea how good they are. they are direct drive, so they will work. maybe look into numark's tt200s. they are a decent law range turntable.

time code vinyl will come with serato :D

mixer: there are quite a few cheap numark mixers in that price range, i would look into those.

software: also look intro traktor, its going for quite cheap these days and its a very well established software. NOTE: you will need traktor SCRATCH to use turntables.

dicers: if your getting turntables then dicers are a really nice add on, BUT, as far as i know they are designed to fit in the adapter slot of technics. i'm not sure if they fit on other turntables nicely (i could be wrong this)

again, i highly encourage you to look into maybe getting a controller instead, as you can get some pretty decent ones in that price range. hope that helps!

Wasn't sure about time coded vinyl being included with the Serato, good to know. I'll look more into Traktor, but as I understand it, it would be an alternative to Serato, right?

Dicers fit the technics ("45 slot"?) or have putty to affix them wherever.

Could you give examples of a couple/few controllers you have in mind? I have done close to zero research on them at this point.

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Originally Posted by binary

Wasn't sure about time coded vinyl being included with the Serato, good to know. I'll look more into Traktor, but as I understand it, it would be an alternative to Serato, right?

Dicers fit the technics ("45 slot"?) or have putty to affix them wherever.

Could you give examples of a couple/few controllers you have in mind? I have done close to zero research on them at this point.

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i believe they fit into that slot.

also, traktor and serato have quite a few large differences (for starters, serato has the ableton bridge + video and traktor has 4 decks, auto sync, more effects, etc).

as for controllers, the thing is that there are sooooo many different kinds, that i can't really narrow any down for ya. you'll have to do a bunch of research. native instruments and vestax make preemo controllers imo. also check out the djtechtools online store, lots of good controllers + deals on there

After some research on controllers I am left feeling like those functions would be covered by dicers or can be reproduced in Serato/Traktor. I have an extensive programming background so binding a button to start a loop or play a shorter phrase for a loop will be quite easy.

What kinds of other things might I need a controller for?

Basically you want to be able to cover the functions of the software...or the parts you will use anyways.

Do you want to mix externally, internally. Have an all in one controller? With or without Jog Wheels?

Mate...to be honest....you are gonna buy something...and love it for a while. Once you get what you want to do, you will feel differently and probably have a 2nd round of buying something.

Happens to pretty much everyone.

2x turntables
1x mixer

Start with the basics and spend enough so you don't need to replace them soon (or take a huge loss when selling).

You don't want to invest in vinyl ? (you don't need 500 vinyls to learn how to beatmix) & Mp3, WAV, ... are also not free !
Change the TT's for cd-players if you only want to play digital.

Then add other stuff once you know what you like / don't like (and do some proper research)

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Originally Posted by binary

After some research on controllers I am left feeling like those functions would be covered by dicers or can be reproduced in Serato/Traktor. I have an extensive programming background so binding a button to start a loop or play a shorter phrase for a loop will be quite easy.

What kinds of other things might I need a controller for?

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controllers control software (such as serato and traktor). the dicers are controllers. The main reason I'm suggesting a controller is because, for the amount of money your thinking of spending you could either get a mediocre analogue set up (turntables + mixer) or you could get a fairly decent controller that will last you a long time.

depending on the controller you get, you'll be able to use your software more effectively. that being said, if your heart is set on turntables, definitely go get em. i started off on a fairly cheap pair of turntables and a cheap mixer, however after a few months i was wishing that I had just initially invested in better stuff.

Thanks for the feedback :)

My heart is pretty much set on vinyl, I like the all the manipulation and want to do beat matching manually. Maybe I'm just losing my mind, and everyone has their opinion (here comes mine), but there is something about CDJs that turns me off and makes the whole thing seem sort of "cheap". I'm really, honestly, sincerely not knocking CDJs or anyone who uses them, I just don't think I could be as happy with good CDJs as I would be with mediocre TTs (would like to hear bad things to consider about TTs, though). Vinyl has deep and various technique and I tend to enjoy things which are vastly expansive and technically difficult, where noticeable improvement can be consistently made but you never reach any "end". I've seen some scratching that is so amazing and on-point that it makes my jaw drop, and I don't personally think the same level of challenge exists in the realm of all-in-one controllers.

As for controllers in the future, I have no doubt that this would be the *start* of my gear, and I'm going to want a completely different setup before I know much at all. Right now I'm hesitant to do it in fear that I will get all of this and not have the practical skill to reach a point where I can enjoy it enough to maintain interest. If you just suck at something and keep sucking eventually you won't want to do it anymore. When I get into something, it's sort of an all-or-nothing proposition, I dive COMPLETELY in or lose interest.

So as much as I would love to spend $5,000 (or way more) I'm not independently wealthy and I have no experience with this and am not *positive* I will enjoy it-- though it sure seems that way. I would like equipment which has enough quality to do simple recordings or whatever, but it does not need to be broadcast or studio recording quality. If I can't put something together that sounds professional then I may lose interest. My overall goal is getting to a clean enough quality sound where it is low-level professional maybe, except my for my lack of skill. $1300 is probably more than what I want to spend, but I don't want a *terrible* first setup-- how bad would it really be? My computer was not cheap, but it is probably the 10th one I've built... I definitely know how the cost of addiction scales upward, and understand this is just a start :lol:

So I guess you could classify this for home use, maybe friends and family will hear me (if they happen to be at my house), but that's really going to be the limit of my audience.

And about collecting vinyl... I'm not against it! It just sort of boils down to the overall effort required to get started and maintain interest. If I only have a handful of vinyls then I'm probably going to lose interest quickly. I can buy MP3s at 3AM on a Sunday morning when a song pops into my head. I can only think of a small handful of local stores which would carry vinyl, so it would be substantially more difficult to get a specific track.

[QUOTE=sarasin;479988Mate...to be honest....you are gonna buy something...and love it for a while. Once you get what you want to do, you will feel differently and probably have a 2nd round of buying something.

Happens to pretty much everyone.[/QUOTE]

Cant agree more with that... I was in the same boat and still am a little bit. I just got back into DJing. Bought a cheap controller and gave it to a friend, bought an expensive controller and its leaving me wanting more. Now its either buy another controller or just bite the bullet and by the industry standard CDJ-2000s. ITs a big inital upfront cost, but if you do your research, save some money and do it right the first time, it will be cheaper in the long run.

Its insane how much good CDJs cost, but if I had the 2 controllers Ive had, software,etc... I could of had CDJs already.

Just another way to look at it. All depends on how you are. Personally I know i buy something cheap to see if I like it, when I like it I go all out in order to save money over the long term...

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Originally Posted by Mahoney86

Personally I know i buy something cheap to see if I like it, when I like it I go all out in order to save money over the long term...

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Yeah, that is totally me. Which also means, if this time around happens, next time is easily going to be a few grand.

It is just hard to be even $1000 sure about DJing at this point, so I am hesitant. Today, tomorrow and even next week there is no doubt it would be enjoyable; I'm not sure about 3/6/9 months out though. The better things go in terms gear selection and music availability are probably key factors in how well it holds my interest. For whatever reason, predicting the future always seems to be a real challenge!

Maybe I'll try TTs and realize they're not for me, it is so hard to say. I consider $1300 to be a somewhat inexpensive initial setup from the perspective of a DJ but from the perspective of an moderately-unsure amateur hobbyist it is expensive. Right now getting my feet wet is sort of the goal, but my concerns about my own capabilities and the compatibility/completeness of my setup are bigger issues.

Don't get me wrong, I want to do this badly (at least now); I just don't want to realize it was a big mistake later on. Frankly, if I get the setup and hunger for more, that would be a best-case scenario.

Just a few thoughts I want to through out there.

If you're looking for some decent direct-drive turntables, there are a few things to consider.
Low end turntables can be a good low cost solution, but be aware, the quality is often compromised.
With low end tables, you'll run into many plastic parts that are easily breakable.
If you think you'll be lugging your gear around, spending more on quality will go a long way.
If you have the time & patience, personally I'd hunt down a pair of Technics SL-1200's
If you take your time, you can find a pair for around $500-$600.
Not to mention they will last a lifetime and you can often get most, if not all your money back if you sell them.

Same goes with a Timecode solution, look around.
I managed to pick up a used but Mint copy of Traktor Scratch Pro 2 (w/Audio 10) for a few hundred bucks.

Regarding low cost mixers, you can't go wrong with Behringers new NOX line.
They are built solid, you get rather decent quality without breaking the bank.
Personally I'd recommend the NOX404 if you're going to be scratching allot.
If you want the ability to expand and want some extra control on your Mixing the NOX606 is a beast #for the price)

Dicers... well, they pretty much do as advertised.
I'm using a Mashine Mikro to control my cue points, but anything that can send MIDI will work.

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Originally Posted by binary

And about collecting vinyl... I'm not against it! It just sort of boils down to the overall effort required to get started and maintain interest. If I only have a handful of vinyls then I'm probably going to lose interest quickly. I can buy MP3s at 3AM on a Sunday morning when a song pops into my head. I can only think of a small handful of local stores which would carry vinyl, so it would be substantially more difficult to get a specific track.

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Don't get this the wrong way but I seriously doubt your motivation to start dj-ing....
It's more like...hey, I love to race cars but if I can't start with a professional car & team...i'm afraid to lose interest.

Thanks a lot Carbon, I'm going to look into those things. None of my setup is set in stone and it makes a lot of sense to look into all of these things now.

Used stuff slightly creeps me out, at least if it is new and I break it I know the quality wasn't good enough or I did something terribly wrong. If I get something used and it fails, the cause of the problem might be unclear. I am glad to hear about the plastic parts in lower quality tables, I knew there had to be *something* driving that 6-fold price difference. OTOH, it would obviously be nice to save hundreds of dollars on something other than car insurance ;)

For everyone's information, the gear will probably be stationary and rarely, if ever move. Primarily looking into mixers right now.

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Originally Posted by JohnnyDrama

Don't get this the wrong way but I seriously doubt your motivation to start dj-ing....
It's more like...hey, I love to race cars but if I can't start with a professional car & team...i'm afraid to lose interest.

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I don't take it the wrong way and even agree to a point. I understand I am going to spend a lot of time on the same piece of music while getting familiar with navigating vinyl and working on dropping and every other technique; I just don't want to have a small selection of things to choose from. I'm not at all saying I won't enjoy it if I don't have 1200s, a Rane Nine-Thousand, and a huge concert hall to perform in; I'm just saying it is important to me to have more than just a few tracks so I can try different techniques with different kinds of music. Also, I don't have a propensity to start things I don't enjoy, so I am 99% sure it is my next love... but you really can never be completely sure until you're actually doing it.

It is just that needing to find/obtain, care for, and store vinyl adds another dimension to getting things in motion and might make things unnecessarily complex. A timecoded solution will remove that hassle and allow me to focus on what I enjoy, which is why it is such an attractive option to me. Maybe I've completely missed the point, but I don't necessarily see that as a huge problem, and it is something I would like to do in the longer run but I don't see myself getting there for 6~12 months.

If you are looking into making mashups, have you considered ableton and an apc 40? I'm not sure TT and a mixer will be gratifying with low to no skill level, where a controller and something to juggle cue points like a midifighter gets the job done marvelously with less time spent initially learning physical technique, while concentrating on the core of producing sound.

Everyone I knew that got a cheap turntable wished they spent the extra money on Technics and usually wound up getting them later. The resale value on used is going to hold to about what you put in them, or more if you got a deal. Remember you are going to need slipmats, headshells and cartridges too, so that is easily another $150-200.

The S4 and a midifighter mapped to control cue points would give you a base on which you can expand, and not break the bank. The S4 can be used with DVS if you decide to add turntables later, and gives you a four channel mixer in the mean time. While you can be looking for the deal on used 1200's.

You will also need to get a pair of decent headphones and something to use a monitor, all these things add up. You might want to check http://www.proaudiostar.com/ to see if they have a bundle that best fits what you need to get started.

I'm going to agree with rdale on that one.

If you're going to go the way of controllers S4 & Mf combo would be a solid bet.
At least with that, you have a solid base to work with. You'll probably achieve more with that setup then you would with turntables in terms of mashups/remixes..etc.

I personally went with vinyl for the same reason you want it.
I'd watch hours of videos of scratch routines that would leave me with goose bumps.
And the hopes of one day matching that level of skill.

I also went with vinyl simply because I was getting bored with my controllers.
I felt I needed more "feel/control" over the sound that only vinyl could deliver.
The only part I regret is breaking the bank. If you cant afford everything at once.. Save up.
I cant stress this enough. I've spent entire paychecks on gear leaving me flat broke for 2 weeks.
If you are impatient and can do it, look into getting some gear financed through a local music shop.
You could easily get a decent mixer along with serato/traktor and maybe some monitors.
That way you'd pay a low monthly fee and still have cash to pick up some 1200's

Judging for your unsurety I would say youre best bet for the time being is to get a controller. You can get some really nice controllers at some cheap price points. Go to Guitar Center and check out their clearance/discontinued section, sometimes you can get gear for 1/4 of the price.

Get a controller and mess around, see if you like it, not for a week or a month but for a few months because everything is usually fun at first. Then make youre move. SL-1200s are the only TT in my mind. I first hard some cheap Numarks and I hated them and ended up going to SL-1210s and taking a bath on my cheap Numarks. Myself personally I was not a big fan of TTs but at the time thats what I had. Now back into DJing 8 years later, I bought a cheap controller to see if I still had the itch, bought a better controller thinking I wanted to go the controller route and now Ive decided CDJs are more where I want to be.

I did go to Guitar Center today and checked out some of their setups, played with an S4 and the Traktor software a bit. Not sure if it has to do with the diameter of CDJs or what, but even the large CDJs (Pioneers, I guess) have a strange feeling about them that I really don't like. They had Dicers on the same setup, which were cool but most of the audio was repetitive to begin with, so adding dicers didn't really provide much in terms of variation. They had no TT display units at all :thumbdown:

The music selection in Traktor was limited to what seemed to be defaults: "Techno Beat 1", "Techno Beat 2", "Percussion 1", etc... so not much fun to be had there. There are also other issues I wouldn't have at home but which made it difficult to really experience: the space available for the mouse was only about twice the size of the mouse itself (made dragging tracks around nearly impossible); the S4 was on a tray which didn't slide all the way out, etc.

There was a B52 Prodigy/CDJ unit for $439 on clearance, but that was the closest thing that would really apply. Besides not really wanting to go the CDJ route, I've seen several reviews complaining of issues with the CD units on the Prodigy. My experience with the S4 today did not do anything to help my feelings about CDJs in the least (somewhat unfortunately).

Spending my current estimated total on just a pair of turntables (if I went with *used* 1200s) is a painful thought, now I am left wondering if it is even worth trying to get into at the price range I am currently looking at, if I should wait, or if I should just say "screw it" with regards to the $450 and play on ATLP120s until they break. I could spend more but I don't want to empty my bank account on this (yet). Can someone approximate just how bad ATLP120s might be? How long do you think they'd last? Anything I could do to minimize the likelihood of them breaking?

Similarly, if I got an APC40 ($299) and Ableton ($499), then I am starting to get pretty close to an inexpensive TT setup. I really do appreciate the suggestion and gave it some serious thought, but I want to get to a more hands-on type thing. I already have a computer and could mix music with out a controller, but that doesn't sound like much fun. An S4 ($899?) and a Midi Fighter ($399) would basically be the entire budget, too. While I understand nothing else would be required, that setup is probably not something I would feel very satisfied with.

If a pair of ATLP120s would let me know whether or not the whole thing is for me, then I can be enticed into some 1200s down the road (I'd be ok with eating that loss). If you guys *really* feel they would be a complete waste and there is almost not chance I would be happy with them even in the interim (say 6-12 months), then I will take your word for it and hold off until I'm ready to cave on the idea of picking up a pair of 1200s. It is a tough decision so I appreciate everyone dropping in and adding their 2 cents, your input really helps me mentally navigate all of the possibilities.

An S4 would be a great first controller, later on you could add Turntables (I'm fairly sure you can run timecode into the S4 inputs), or sell the lot when you've pinned down the direction you want to go it, resale seems to be pretty good...

If you want cheap quality TT's then second hand superOEM's are you only option (or maybe the reloop 4000 m3d)

You know this isn't a cheap hobby right? It is going to cost you some money, and you will have to make a decision between tts/cdjs/controllers. You will need to either shell out some money on something quality, or shell out a bit of money on something you will have to upgrade later. Not trying to discourage you, DJing is a LOT of fun, but why do you want to be a DJ? Are you looking to remix tunes? Play music and mix tracks back to back? Because its cool? Because all the ladies love a DJ? Or because you enjoy music?

A lot of us on here have bought cheap, and then bought again, and don't want to see someone else make the same mistakes. The rest spent some serious cash, and don't need to upgrade/replace.

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Originally Posted by dripstep

You know this isn't a cheap hobby right?

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For sure, and I'm ok with that; just trying to minimize the initial impact on my bank acct ;)

Why do I want to be a DJ? I touched on that in my initial post, primarily to mix music and stratch. I like the direct connection between a physical device and music; I listen to music all day everyday while I work at home. While all the ladies love a DJ, I have one lady, she is enough trouble for me (even though she gave this whole thing her unofficial rubber-stamp of approval).

I definitely know what you guys mean about spending money, then doing it again-- the right way. I just don't want this whole thing to go to crap or cost multiple thousands of dollars before I'm able to even get started. OTOH, I don't want to spend $500 on crappy new turntables when I could get a good pair for another $500 and possibly be happy forever with them.

My main concern with used stuff is that I have no way of telling how much wear the unit has endured. Why would someone even sell 1200s, unless they were no longer going to DJ or the units were damaged/broken? Are there any red flags to look for?

Most people I've come across selling their 1200's are usually giving up on the DJ thing.
I wouldn't worry too much about it. 1200's are built like tanks and can take a decent amount of abuse.

I highly recommend checking out Xonetacular's guide to buying used Technics.

http://forum.djtechtools.com/showthread.php?t=47069

I sold my 1210s right before college becase I had no time for it in school and I started a business. My buddy bought them from me and theyre still going strong today, he got mint TTs for 1/2 price... Lots of people sell almost brand new equipment because of major reasons. Same reason you find used cars with 4k miles on them....

Thanks! This is EXACTLY what I needed

I don't know your local second hand market / craigslist offers but a set of superOEM's in good condition should not be more then $500.

For $1000 you should have a complete setup that is upgradeable without having to switch gear any time soon (you can just add stuff in the long run).

No I can't, the TTs alone will be $1,000. If I'm going to go used it doesn't make sense to me to get anything other than the tanks.

At this point I'm falling completely in, thinking about how much side work I need to do to be able to afford 1200s, a time coding solution (leaning Serato), and I am considering a DDM4000 with that setup. Someone recommended it in another thread and I think it has a lot of features for that price point; I can might not even get the dicers if I go that route.

So for somewhere around the $2k mark I would be very happy, have solid TTs, etc. That's not much side work for a pretty significant difference in what I will have (also going from new to used TTs).

Are you guys going to try to talk me upward to $3k now? :crying:

Who is talking about 3K ?

If you realy want 1200's then this should be doable (all second hand but A-gear):

pair 1200 MKII: $650-ish
Mixer (vestax, don't even think scratching with a behringer CF): $400
SSL: $400-ish
Laptop: i hope you have one ?

That is below 1.5K (without LT) and I hope you realize that a lot of good DJ's that are mixing for years can only dream of that setup and there is notting wrong buying SH. So get real and don't overload on gear that will cost a lot of money, not improve your skills short term, confuse you & your learning curve,....

I'll be using my desktop machine, it has a professional audio soundcard with RCAs and monitors on arms (so they can be positioned however I want). I'm doing this as a personal hobby, so I won't be traveling with my gear.

Looked around a bit to see what was out there for 1200s locally, it looks like they'll need to be purchased individually or I will have to hunt a while. Everyone seems to be selling single units, but I want two which are at least the same model and in decent condition. Every good condition+ MKII I've seen in my area is $500. One person has a pair of them for $1k, but it is a 5-6 hour drive each way (and I'm thinking about it). Many of those prices are probably negotiable but it's likely going to be $800 for the TTs.

SSL might be $400 sometimes, but in those cases the vinyl is not included (+$50). Then, there are the nickel-and-dime things... slipmats, cartridges, maybe a couple actual records to mess around with.

Vestax mixers don't appear to have any controller features, are there some Vestax mixers I am not seeing? Do you make that recommendation specifically because of scratching or because you think mixers with controller features are generally worse quality? Just curious; either way I'd want to have -some- kind of controller features, but they could be on a separate unit (again increases the cost a little).

So nobody is talking about $3k, we're working on it... besides, I was only kidding anyhow.

The VMC series has an USB option. I really liked Vestax mixers back in the day, straight forward, less frills than other mixers, but really solid at the basics.