Does Software DJing Hinder Your Overall Skill?

I've continuously have had this conflict with using my software instead of CDs or vinyl. A lot of the clubs nearby prefer only CD DJs (probably due to easier DJ transition/setup), but part of me feels that it is also a skill-level basis.

Considering that software can read you the BPMs, set beatmarkers and visually show you when you're beatmatched, it seems that it makes DJing a great amount easier; am I wrong to think that this somewhat hinders your ability to be a "good" DJ, if you only use software? DJing was first invented to keep the music flowing all night through smooth mixing; when you reduce that to something software can do for you, it personally makes me feel like you are cheating yourself out of becoming a "true" DJ.

Don't get me wrong - software DJing is great; the FXs and creativity that you can unleash are practically unparalleled with regular CDJing or vinyl. And maybe that's what DJing is transforming more into: live musical remixing and performances with unlimited creativity. Either way, I think it would benefit every DJ to learn on vinyl or CDJs so they know the old basics and don't have to use software as a crutch. Perhaps this is because I'm primarily a trance DJ, rather than a techno or breakbeat DJ, I'm not sure.

Anyway, hopefully this didn't sound like a rant - my goal was to put out an interesting philosophical question about our hobbies, jobs, careers, and passions, and to get some community feedback/input on the matter. Any comments, insults, or inputs would be appreciated!

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Originally Posted by Toastmaster

Am I wrong to think that this somewhat hinders your ability to be a "good" DJ, if you only use software?

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I don’t want to start this conversation again as I’m sure it’s been done to death, but being a good DJ is nothing about beatmatching or how many FX you can trigger with 100 samples looped on the fly. As you mentioned yourself, "DJ’ing was invented to keep the music flowing all night…….”

Regarding software DJ’ing introducing skillfade to your manual beatmatching skills, I often work away from my “proper” vinyl setup for months at a time and have to use software as I have no room in my bag for a set of 1210’s! What happens when I get back however is that I find I haven’t lost the “ear” for knowing when music is out of time or the “theory” side of DJ’ing, it’s more the physical side of slowing records down, brushing up on the quick crossfader work and getting back into the groove of it all. This happens with anything you do, not just DJ’ing, and is probably muscle memory related.

The short of it is, software DJ’ing won’t detract from your skills, it’s more the actual time spent NOT manipulating a record or a CDJ platter that will cause skill fade.

http://covers.openlibrary.org/w/id/54363-L.jpg

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Originally Posted by Toastmaster

Considering that software can read you the BPMs, set beatmarkers and visually show you when you're beatmatched, it seems that it makes DJing a great amount easier; am I wrong to think that this somewhat hinders your ability to be a "good" DJ, if you only use software?

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If you rely heavily on those features and cannot match songs using only a pitch control and your ears, it will create a problem if you started out using Turntables.

Possibly I am one of the few Traktor users that do not take advantage of the plethora of features the software offers. This is more than likely one of the reasons why I am still using version 1.27

It may be due to getting in this business when Turntables was the only means of playing music for the masses. So one must use there ears more to achieve a perfect blend.

Bear in mind age will play a factor on where one stands on your topic. One cannot expect those who were not born in a time when Turntables were standard to embrace a technology that is before their time.

I feel it is all depending on how you use technology as a tool. Yes it can be a massive crutch and when I was young DJing i use to tare everyone apart that used laptops and CDJs etc... I use to say thats not real DJing, anyone can hit play and cue and be a juke box. Then I took probably 8+ years off and just recently came back a few months ago and obviously technology has been booming! As stated earlier, I still have the musical ear, I still not what I am supposed to do with beat matching an mixing, however I have so many more useful tools to make it better. I could have never dont anyting close what I can do now on my old Vestax mixer and 1210's because I have so many more tools to utilize now.
I have friends who will not buy anything without a Sync button because they cant beat match and when the beat grid is off their mixes fall apart and they cannot save them for life. Personally I dont use Sync as I feel it takes away from the skill, however using Sync as an auto-tempo to slow down a beat when transitioning into a slow song has been a great tool because I can focus on getting the mix right and bringing in a tune better than taking the time to slow down a track etc.... Just my personal opinion

The biggest issue with software djing is its made it cheaper and more accessible. This has ment dj wages have gone down as when you go to a bar owner and they like your stuff when you come down to talking about money, its like you say 100 quid they say I can get som1 to do it for 40.

The thing is you both know that 90% of the customers dont care or understand the differnce and are just there to get there end away. People also assume you dont pay for your music, where as when it was all vinyl everybody paid for music so when your spending 30 to 40 quid a week on records there was less people that could compete

"but auto sync allows me to be more creative"....

translates as, blends 2 tracks and fiddles a few filters

Quantization allows mixing four decks at once with only two jogwheels, while juggling/ live sampling and using effects all at once. Plus the ability to adjust the tempo of multiple live decks at once is an absolute game-changer for moving through genres. And kids who just transition between two records are going to come up and say what they do is above all that?

Pretty tired of douchebags who let one track play out alone for two minutes, then transition to the next one, and act like they've just done something amazing that requires their years of experience, and look down on everyone else. Yeah, you didn't NEED the full two minutes to do it, because you're *so good at beatmatching* but you HAD two whole minutes, so all your skill is moot, ANYONE could have done what you did in the time you had. How is the measure of a DJ how much time he can spend doing nothing, because he's so good at beatmatching?

TL;DR: Uppity two-deck transition DJs are like the guy at the party showing off his alcohol tolerance by drinking way more than everyone else, then puking and passing out. Yeah, you sure are good at that skill, but anyone could gotten to that end.... Instead, the rest of us are going to have fun all night.

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Originally Posted by faderswagger

Quantization allows mixing four decks at once with only two jogwheels, while juggling/ live sampling and using effects all at once. Plus the ability to adjust the tempo of multiple live decks at once is an absolute game-changer for moving through genres. And kids who just transition between two records are going to come up and say what they do is above all that?

Pretty tired of douchebags who let one track play out alone for two minutes, then transition to the next one, and act like they've just done something amazing that requires their years of experience, and look down on everyone else. Yeah, you didn't NEED the full two minutes to do it, because you're *so good at beatmatching* but you HAD two whole minutes, so all your skill is moot, ANYONE could have done what you did in the time you had. How is the measure of a DJ how much time he can spend doing nothing, because he's so good at beatmatching?

TL;DR: Uppity two-deck transition DJs are like the guy at the party showing off his alcohol tolerance by drinking way more than everyone else, then puking and passing out. Yeah, you sure are good at that skill, but anyone could gotten to that end.... Instead, the rest of us are going to have fun all night.

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It's funny because I feel like a lot of DJ's, and I will be honest and say Traktor in particular because of the syncing, move things too quickly for me a lot of the time. Not saying everyone, but a lot of the "new" DJ's just do silly things way too often.

I really prefer a tight, long mix. A solid transition with minimal FX and letting the actual tracks and selection do the talking. Scratching is good once and awhile, the same with controllerist tricks. But a long smooth soulful mix? That's what I love hearing at a club.

It's also depending on what you're listening to. Soulful house, drum and bass, breaks even, can be funky and soulful. Dubstep, hardstyle I feel is a bit faster transition wise with harder cuts a lot of the time.

It really depends on how you're looking at it.

I've had the conversation about people with CDJ's and Vinyl and software, and it's interesting.

I feel that using vinyl DVS (Serato or Traktor) is pretty commonplace these days, as you can't really expect most people to be able to afford to buy tracks on vinyl anymore (at least stateside) since it's honestly wicked expensive.

CDJ's are a great medium, but they can be foolish as well with the newer ones. If people are using CDJ's, I see absolutely NO reason for them to be using software in conjunction with them. Rekordbox allows you to set things up ahead of time, and so guys using that is fine, but it's not the same as it once was, though it does look a hell of a lot more professional. CDJ's are also wicked easy to transition with, and that's handy as well. It's also a lot easier to buy some tracks, and burn them onto CD or USB stick than it is dealing with a computer.

Another thing, vinyl or cdj wise, is that people who have invested into them? They have INVESTED into them. Shit ain't cheap. And that shows that there is some serious dedication to the craft when you're able to put that much money into something just to play around with at first. If you can use TT's or CDJ's, you probably have spent a lot of time at it, and are probably in it for the long haul.

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept of controllers, and Ableton aside, I like them for an "addition" for my own stuff. (Dicers, MPKmini). But you do get to see who has invested into the real equipment when there are vinyl only, or cdj only nights. It weeds out the people who haven't invested into it.

And while it may not be completely fair to everyone, there are a LOT of people running around with controllers these days who don't know the ropes.

I don't want to be unfair, but an 18 year old who hasn't been going to clubs for years isn't going to have the same mindset as someone a bit older, who goes out night after night for years and understands the scene. It's just a fact. Some people are absolute geniuses about it, I know I'm not one of them, I have to bust my ass practicing every day.

You need something to set a baseline when booking people, and it's tough to know without seeing people play or knowing them well sometimes.

To me, it's just motivation to learn tt's and/or CDJ's, so I can get in on those kind of nights and not have to worry about it anymore.

Yeah I definitely know what you mean. The style of mixing is definitely dependent on the style of music. For example, I have no idea how you'd really even mix trance without being a transition DJ. I follow the controllerist path because I'm a multi-genre DJ, and it lets me move between genres freely. It is also the way to go for live-remix style, which lends itself well to the styles I play. (not dubstep... I know you're wondering)

I don't ever want to say what other people do takes little skill, all I want to do is fight for respect what some of us do. Because it deserves just as much respect.

If there's one thing I'm sure of, it's that *skill* is giving way to *creativity* in the DJ world, which is a very good thing. creativity aside, sync and beatmatching end up sounding the same.... So we can only go up from there. Anybody can train their ear for years and be great at beatmatching, but you can't learn creativity, and in the end creativity is what the people we're entertaining want. I think it's a great thing that technology has removed the need for years of practice, because kids who happen to be super creative can jump right into it and be awesome. Sure a lot of kids try to do this and suck, but don't judge the concept, just because a few people suck.

Look at porter Robinson! Kid started at like 16, and is amazingly talented. He's already able to go out and use his natural talent because he didn't have to spend years learning the physical parts of DJing, because software does it for him. You can cry all you want about how unfair it is, and how he's "cheating" because he doesn't beatmatch... But software has just leveled the playing field between your years of beatmatching experience, and his age... and at the end of the day, he's just fucking better than you.

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Originally Posted by faderswagger

Quantization allows mixing four decks at once with only two jogwheels, while juggling/ live sampling and using effects all at once. Plus the ability to adjust the tempo of multiple live decks at once is an absolute game-changer for moving through genres. And kids who just transition between two records are going to come up and say what they do is above all that?

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Using four decks is not hard and has been around before DJs started using computers. However, it required more money to buy the proper equipment in order to make it possible.

Most old DJs (spinning in the 1970’s) that used four decks before Native Instruments was even founded would more than likely prefer a third and fourth controller instead of trying to do it all on two Jog wheels for sooner or later it will be a limiting factor.

Sampling machines, filter boxes and, delay processors were not uncommon with some DJs. However, you would need to buy the equipment separately.

Preference, what is most comfortable, in addition to who he/she is catering for, would determine if a DJ requires 4, 3, or 2 decks. Keep in mind there are DJs that use Microphones to hype up the crowd that don’t require more than two decks. Maybe not so much on the Club scene however, on the hardcore underground rave scene it is standard.

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Originally Posted by DJ Abercrombie

Using four decks is not hard and has been around before DJs started using computers. However, it required more money to buy the proper equipment in order to make it possible.

Most old DJs (spinning in the 1970’s) that used four decks before Native Instruments was even founded would more than likely prefer a third and fourth controller instead of trying to do it all on two Jog wheels for sooner or later it will be a limiting factor.

Sampling machines, filter boxes and, delay processors were not uncommon with some DJs. However, you would need to buy the equipment separately.

Preference, what is most comfortable, in addition to who he/she is catering for, would determine if a DJ requires 4, 3, or 2 decks. Keep in mind there are DJs that use Microphones to hype up the crowd that don’t require more than two decks. Maybe not so much on the Club scene however, on the hardcore underground rave scene it is standard.

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Not sure what point you're making sir... That all that is technically possible without software...? If so, you didn't address everything, there's still no way to change tempos of multiple decks at once without software. Also, all of the gear required to do what you DID address would be: first, so expensive that it's barely feasible, and second, so large that a DJ would rarely be able to set it all up at events. I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but if you're implying that it's no excuse to use software because you can do it with hardware... then you're nuts.

Also, I personally play almost exclusively in the "hardcore underground rave scene"... And at least here, the guys yelling generic pump up shit over the mic the whole time are pretty much treated as no-talent ass clowns who do that because they can't mix.

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Originally Posted by Toastmaster

I've continuously have had this conflict with using my software instead of CDs or vinyl. A lot of the clubs nearby prefer only CD DJs (probably due to easier DJ transition/setup), but part of me feels that it is also a skill-level basis.

Considering that software can read you the BPMs, set beatmarkers and visually show you when you're beatmatched, it seems that it makes DJing a great amount easier; am I wrong to think that this somewhat hinders your ability to be a "good" DJ, if you only use software? DJing was first invented to keep the music flowing all night through smooth mixing; when you reduce that to something software can do for you, it personally makes me feel like you are cheating yourself out of becoming a "true" DJ.

Don't get me wrong - software DJing is great; the FXs and creativity that you can unleash are practically unparalleled with regular CDJing or vinyl. And maybe that's what DJing is transforming more into: live musical remixing and performances with unlimited creativity. Either way, I think it would benefit every DJ to learn on vinyl or CDJs so they know the old basics and don't have to use software as a crutch. Perhaps this is because I'm primarily a trance DJ, rather than a techno or breakbeat DJ, I'm not sure.

Anyway, hopefully this didn't sound like a rant - my goal was to put out an interesting philosophical question about our hobbies, jobs, careers, and passions, and to get some community feedback/input on the matter. Any comments, insults, or inputs would be appreciated!

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I don't think it hinders. However, it does allow for shortcuts and shortcuts can sometimes can hinders progress.

To a seasoned DJ that knows the basics of DJing this can enhance and elevate his performance.

To a DJ starting out from 0 this may at first seem to be the best route. However, it takes away the basics from the DJ.

I anything you do, if you don't have the basics, things become half assed. Carpenter using a nail gun may get the job done faster and less fatigued. However, with the speed and laisser faire attitude, you can miss some of the details that are detriment to the building of the house.

This topic again... yawn

Honestly for me. My mixes suffer when I use software. I rely too much on it, I stare at the screen. I assume my grids are correct. etc. For me I am a CDJ person. I have most of the software benefits, while still doing some portions by ear. Its a good middle ground for me. That being said for longer gigs I'll use my S2 or whatever, but I just know my mixing isn't up to par. Its probably because I don't practice enough with software.

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Originally Posted by Bassline Brine

It's funny because I feel like a lot of DJ's, and I will be honest and say Traktor in particular because of the syncing, move things too quickly for me a lot of the time. Not saying everyone, but a lot of the "new" DJ's just do silly things way too often.

I really prefer a tight, long mix. A solid transition with minimal FX and letting the actual tracks and selection do the talking. Scratching is good once and awhile, the same with controllerist tricks. But a long smooth soulful mix? That's what I love hearing at a club.

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I totally agree with this. If you need to move four decks' tempos at the same time whenever you play out, chances are you're doing way too much. I'm one of those "kids who just transition between two records" most of the time, and I prefer it that way. Sure It's nice to watch a cool juggle routine (or turntablist routine) once in a while but that kind of controllerism is a different beast entirely and it's not the kind of thing most people go to clubs to hear.

I wouldn't be back into DJing without Traktor/serato software. I'm old & from the vinyl days, got out of spinning because I was tired of my records & it was hard or to expensive at the time to buy more.

I'm learning traktor & love features like cue points & timecode of course. I'll never use the sync. It's actually harder for me to use sync than doing with my ear. :glare:

I still DJ like I used to. It's just much more convenient now. So to answer your question. Not for me.

And when I say it's harder to use sync it seems like a lot of the bpm's in hip hop are off in traktor. I can't trust it.

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Originally Posted by faderswagger

Quantization allows mixing four decks at once with only two jogwheels, while juggling/ live sampling and using effects all at once. Plus the ability to adjust the tempo of multiple live decks at once is an absolute game-changer for moving through genres.

Pretty tired of douchebags who let one track play out alone for two minutes,

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i know what you mean, i would hate it if i went to a club and a track played for 2 minutes. :p

but yeah i get what everyone says about either type of dance dj. mixing and blending only 2 tracks might not be that technical, but mixing 4 decks applying effects and using samples is just overkill. i would prefer to hear the tracks rather than hear them twisted into something unrecognisable and non danceable.

but either way, dj'ing dance is not hard and people should never look down on fellow dj's for what software/hardware they use. 90% of the dancefloor dont care and just want to .....dance!

controllerism = 3 minute sideshow
turntablism = 5 minute sideshow
boring 2 deck mixing with good song selection played with respect for the productions (minimal effects) = main event which lasts all night baby!

If you want to do everything live join a band or atleast get a couple of mates so you have enough hands to do everything to make it work, there is only so many things that one person can do and still remain musicl not experimental.

I wish I'd learnt on CDJs or vinyl, it's a lot funner for me. But because I'm a poor teenager I can afford neither, so I learnt on MIDI controllers. I feel like I focused a lot more on the music with CDJs, which was nice.

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Originally Posted by teambama

And when I say it's harder to use sync it seems like a lot of the bpm's in hip hop are off in traktor. I can't trust it.

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yeah auto-beatgrid won't always be correct; if you don't check and adjust your beatgrids before a set you should avoid the sync button. But if the grids are set right sync works perfectly.

The software isn't what hinders your skills, it's the laziness in using these things that hinders your skills.

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Originally Posted by photojojo

The software isn't what hinders your skills, it's the laziness in using these things that hinders your skills.

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+1

Its YOUR skill, creativity and responsibility; just as much as it is any other "DJ".

I hardly read any of the responses, but I will say a couple things.

First, this isn't the same old debate. Slight changes make this question a bit more interesting to me.

Second, I don't think there's anything inherent with the tools that is explicitly cheating or in any way hindering to throwing a good set.

Third, I can't imagine what it must be like to learn on controllers. I learned on vinyl and did a lot of sets that way. I've owned every major performance medium there is, and I think the controllers got boring because "live remixing" the way most people mean it isn't the least bit interesting to me. Live production is cool, but you don't need a computer to do it and you never did. The MPC60 came out in 1988. So, I don't get the whole "computers makes you more creative" thing……moslty, they just makes specific types of being creative cheaper…which is kinda cool.

Fourth, how much that stuff matters really does depend on your genre. I hate what people call multi-format DJing. It sounds like ADD on parade to me most of the time. And I don't think the effects or mashups make up for the complete lack of direction and timing. But that's just a taste thing.

And last……I have no idea how people learn on controllers. Learning to DJ on vinyl forces you to either suck miserably or learn to listen to music differently from a layman. Without learning that, I couldn't DJ. And you can learn it with controllers and all the tools in the world……it's just that most people don't.

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Originally Posted by mostapha

Live production is cool, but you don't need a computer to do it and you never did. The MPC60 came out in 1988. So, I don't get the whole "computers makes you more creative" thing.

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Sure, coz the MPC60 isn't a computer.

Sorry, just being pedantic...

Worse things have happened.