EMP or Sound Engineering? :S

Hi,

I'm basically interested in starting the EMP course (1 year - ableton) versus a full fledged 2 year Audio Production/Sound Engineering course.

My questions regarding the EMP course are :

For reference I do not play any instrument, but I Dj. Would the fact that I do not play an instrument hamper my ability to grasp the entirety of this course?

In all practicality if I were to join Dubspot or Point blank and spend shit loads of $$$ on a 1 year EMP course, what are my Career options like on the completion of the course?
Salaries and the like? But more importantly Job Options.

Coming to the latter,

I'll begin with the fact that my genre interest lie within Dubstep/Dnb/House/Psy.

What would a 2 year Audio Production/Sound Engineering teach me?
What is the difference between Sound Engineering/audio Production and EMP?
Does the Ableton Training in both courses differ?
How is SAE for this course? Where in comparison exactly would the Berkley School of Music stand?
Also Career Options and Salaries for this course Please.

I really like the aforesaid genres of music and hope to be able to make it. What path do I need to take?
If you suggest any other institutes, please do mention them but with a insight to why those over the ones I've mentioned.

I know its quite a long post but its been playing my mind for a while.

Anticipating an early response,

Thanks! :)

i have no experience of those courses.

When I got into sound engineering a long time ago, just before CD (or just before wax cylinder, lol), the way to really learn was not through courses but by getting a lowly goffa job. The pop studios didn't recognise any courses, and preferred to train people their style, rather than have a sound engineering college graduate come in. They just didn't accept them.

I'm really dubious to courses. From speaking to those who have done them, they generally don't reflect what's going in the studios and programming rooms of the producers who are delivering. Things may have changed, but I can't imagine any such course delivering you any real career prospects or guaranteed salaries. The music biz just isn't that way.

Many of the great producers have just been creative people who have picked stuff up from those around them and just had a natural flair. I'm not into David Guetta, but I really respect what he's done. He was just Djing for years. With his recent interview with Jonathan Ross he said he took his laptop into a big professional studio for the first time when he produced "I got a feeling" by the black Eyed Peas. He just did it. He din't have any training or didn't even work in proper studios.

I, personally, have just done the sound engineering side of things previously, but a few months ago I edited up a backing track and put my own effected vocal samples on it, and realised, from my Djing I could make a really good track if I put my mind to it. I think Djing is a good way to get into production and learning to arrange sounds, etc. Technology is getting cheaper and cheaper and what you can do with Maschine would have cost £20k plus when I started all that time ago. It was EXPENSIVE. Now, look what a few hundred quid gets you.

Maybe those course are good. I don't know. It can take years to get really good, but then you get some talented young upstart who comes along and throws convention out the window and shines above the rest. Some of the talented EDM guys have done that. They don't need to do the traditional routes.

If you are only interested in electronic music/dance music production, just keep practicing. If you are into traditional mixing/recording/micing up bands, using analogue consoles and learn more about music and its production go for audio engineering/audio production for 2 years. You will learn different softwares like pro tools(which is an industry standard)/logic/reason depending on your school ofcourse.

I would suggest you go for the audio engineering school as they will also have EMP classes, I believe Audio Engineering school will help you more if you want to work in the music industry.

@Timbo 21
I do understand where you're coming from, though times have changed.
As far as David Guetta is concerned, i do understand everything except one thing..when you say :
"He just did it. He din't have any training or didn't even work in proper studios".
What do you mean? Haha how can you just do it? It seems sort of vague.

@Maven
I mentioned in my original post that I have no experience in an instrument. Will that hamper my learning process?
Also I DO NOT produce at all. I am fairly new to the basic controls in Logic Pro.
If I decide to do EMP, what are my Career Options?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiranhaPiper

@Timbo 21
As far as David Guetta is concerned, i do understand everything except one thing..when you say :
"He just did it. He din't have any training or didn't even work in proper studios".
What do you mean? Haha how can you just do it? It seems sort of vague.

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Yes it is, lol. You'll have to ask DG himself.

I don't know his exact path. Of course everyone's different. From what I know he started DJing. He said he was just rocking out by himself in his bedroom for some time. I imagine he got some entry stuff to program on, learnt from others, and went from there.

Engineering for EDM is so much simpler now. Traktor will set up a triplet delay at a push of a button. In recording studios we had to use 2 seperate digital delays and calculate the milliseconds to the BPM. I've been amazed at how NI have simplified programming. I would love to try Maschine.

I think one extra benefit of a course would be a way to meet others, see how they are doing things. It does really obviously help if you know an instrument. Just learning a few piano chords can take quite some way in EDM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timbo21

Yes it is, lol. You'll have to ask DG himself.

I don't know his exact path. Of course everyone's different. From what I know he started DJing. He said he was just rocking out by himself in his bedroom for some time. I imagine he got some entry stuff to program on, learnt from others, and went from there.

Engineering for EDM is so much simpler now. Traktor will set up a triplet delay at a push of a button. In recording studios we had to use 2 seperate digital delays and calculate the milliseconds to the BPM. I've been amazed at how NI have simplified programming. I would love to try Maschine.

I think one extra benefit of a course would be a way to meet others, see how they are doing things. It does really obviously help if you know an instrument. Just learning a few piano chords can take quite some way in EDM.

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I saw his movie, "Nothing but the beat". He talks about how he started out as a Dj in france at gay bars and then played in the States after. He picked up RnB and merged it with Gaybar Electro and hence now he's the man. But I mean TUNES? You cant just learn to produce overnight you know.

Traktor wont really help produce. Its more of a Digital Dj Software. Yes, NI have a raised the standard in that sense.

Ah, finally a suggestion. Piano...Ace!

Career options. (Just EMP - Electronic Music Production)? Not the 2 year Audio engineering.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiranhaPiper

Traktor wont really help produce. Its more of a Digital Dj Software. Yes, NI have a raised the standard in that sense.

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Yes, I realise that, but it's just an example of how much easier, and cheaper, it is now.

DG obviously has a great talent for making dance tunes. I think most people can learn sound engineering. The first time I went into this 16 track studio and I couldn't discern what they were doing, but over time my ears learnt to 'see', as it were, and I learnt eq'ing, what compression sounded like, etc. However, great songwriting. How do you teach that? Production techniques can be learnt, but then you need the creativity from within to use that to come up with your own techniques and ideas.

What set apart many great American producers from UK ones, was that they were great arrangers. Quincy Jones is an arranger, so is Arif Mardin. Many UK producers didn't and don't have that talent. So, I personally think arrangement is the fundamental building blocks of good production.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timbo21

Yes, I realise that, but it's just an example of how much easier, and cheaper, it is now.

DG obviously has a great talent for making dance tunes. I think most people can learn sound engineering. The first time I went into this 16 track studio and I couldn't discern what they were doing, but over time my ears learnt to 'see', as it were, and I learnt eq'ing, what compression sounded like, etc. However, great songwriting. How do you teach that? Production techniques can be learnt, but then you need the creativity from within to use that to come up with your own techniques and ideas.

What set apart many great American producers from UK ones, was that they were great arrangers. Quincy Jones is an arranger, so is Arif Mardin. Many UK producers didn't and don't have that talent. So, I personally think arrangement is the fundamental building blocks of good production.

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Well yeah, I mean technically Logic pro and Ableton come at an easy $500.
Which isn't THAT expensive.

You make a lot of sense, but I still need to figure out whether EMP has enough options out there for me to survive after I complete it.

After a bit of research I have found out that with a 2 year Audio Engineering course there are many avenues i can look at.

Im in law school. By the time I graduate I'll be 23 which is a year away. I really need to figure out what to get into after as I won't
have much time thinking about it then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiranhaPiper

Im in law school. By the time I graduate I'll be 23 which is a year away. I really need to figure out what to get into after as I won't
have much time thinking about it then.

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Well, that's good. My advice is keep the law thing going. At least keep it as a back up. I've seen the music industry diminish massively in UK. Much more music being made in small home studios. In 2007 it stopped being a viable way of living for me as an engineer. Producers need quite a good selling album to make money, or string of top singles. As most say on here, you can't make much of a living selling underground tracks on Beatport. It's easier than ever to get your music heard through the internet, but now harder than ever to make a living from it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timbo21

Well, that's good. My advice is keep the law thing going. At least keep it as a back up. I've seen the music industry diminish massively in UK. Much more music being made in small home studios. In 2007 it stopped being a viable way of living for me as an engineer. Producers need quite a good selling album to make money, or string of top singles. As most say on here, you can't make much of a living selling underground tracks on Beatport. It's easier than ever to get your music heard through the internet, but now harder than ever to make a living from it.

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Thats great advice on one hand as well as demoralising on the other haha.
I do believe times are harder now, especially with the number of artists having increased 10 fold with the rise in
technology. Yeah, so you suggest audio at this point in time doesnt make sense at all?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PiranhaPiper

Yeah, so you suggest audio at this point in time doesnt make sense at all?

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No, not at all. Things are better in the U.S. than the U.K. There is much more money. EDM has become mainstream.

I'm just saying keep a back up, if you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Timbo21

No, not at all. Things are better in the U.S. than the U.K. There is much more money. EDM has become mainstream.

I'm just saying keep a back up, if you can.

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Though wasn't Dubstep/Dnb originated in UK? Shouldn't the UK have better scope for both these genres?
I've got a bba.llb degree as a back up.
Thanks for all your input. You've been very helpful.

Good luck.

Drive and enthusiasm will get you everywhere :)