CDJ or Controller? What's your take?

I started DJing about a year and a half ago. I am now getting more serious about it and I am looking to upgrade my equipment. I am currently using a Numark Mixtrack mapped to Traktor Pro 2. For the gigs i've done, this has gotten the job done perfectly. I love it. However, it was good to start. It doesn't have all of the bells and whistles that i'm looking for. I am looking to upgrade to a Pioneer controller.

Now I see a lot of professional level DJs using CDJs instead of controllers. I have read that controllers are considered 'bedroom equipment' and CDJs are considered 'pro equipment'.

Is it personal preference? Am I going to be looked at as a less skilled DJ because I use a controller over CDJs?

I will always be using my laptop. I feel more comfortable with a controller than a CDJ anyway.

What do you think?

First off I'd suggest a search - there are quite a few threads on this topic.

That said, here's my take:

Most pro DJs have been at this for years. Many of said DJs have been doing this longer than Traktor/etc. have been around, so they're used to CDJs and stick to what they're used to. Aside from that, the higher end get to specify riders; they get to tell venues what equipment to have for them, so if they want a DJM 2000 and 4 CDJ 2000s they get it. However, you're not getting your own rider any time soon.

Unfortunately, having a controller is often the mark of a newer/younger DJ, because the older ones will tend to be on CDJs (not strictly true, but it's the stereotype). Controller setups are cheaper, so they tend to be the entry-level option, which furthers this stereotype. The clubs I've been to in my area have all had DJs playing there using a variety of controllers and/or CDJs/TTs. I haven't heard of controllers being much of an issue in my area, though it does feel like a slight bias against them exists. Realistically I don't think using a controller would prevent you from getting many gigs in Boston/Rhode Island, but I couldn't really tell you about PA as I've not been.

CDJs have practical advantages; most clubs will have a pair of CDJs and a mixer so if you're comfortable mixing on those, you don't have to hook anything up when you show up to your gig; a controller setup means connecting a soundcard which can be a pain for changeovers. Convenience doesn't sound like much in the context of a bedroom, but if you can avoid having to plug into the back of the mixer (not always the easiest thing to access) in the middle of someone else's set - that's kind of a big deal. Long-run I plan on investing in CDJs and I've done the whole controller thing for years.

Real talk though: From a financial/business perspective, if you're not gigging out often enough to make a return, then this is kind of irrelevant. Buying CDJs will not make you a pro in and of itself and probably won't make the difference you're expecting them to. They do promote better habits as far as encouraging proper beatmatching instead of syncing as well as arguably more careful music management, but they won't make the difference in workflow and sound that something like a mixer will. If you just want the most enjoyable setup that will potentially last you the longest, CDJs could be a solid option. They're really expensive though, so if you're not prepared to drop around 4k for a pair of nice CDJs and a mixer to go with them you might rethink the idea. If you don't think you'll make that amount of money back by getting more gigs because you use CDJs, you're spending 4 grand on a hobby; just make sure you realize that. If money's more of a concern, I'd suggest grabbing a mixer and two technics 1200s. I grabbed my techs for 300 apiece and honestly, they're as fun or to mix on with Traktor Scratch as with 2 CDJs. This left me enough money within my budget to get a DJM 900 nexus (which honestly is excessive for my use; I didn't say I practice what I preach, but I enjoy it).

Side note: The next time I wanted to upgrade I grabbed an RMX-1000 which, next to Traktor, has been my single best DJ-related investment as far as the improvement in my sound goes. It's not perfect, but it fits my workflow beautifully and is a hell of a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by keeb

First off I'd suggest a search - there are quite a few threads on this topic.

That said, here's my take:

Most pro DJs have been at this for years. Many of said DJs have been doing this longer than Traktor/etc. have been around, so they're used to CDJs and stick to what they're used to. Aside from that, the higher end get to specify riders; they get to tell venues what equipment to have for them, so if they want a DJM 2000 and 4 CDJ 2000s they get it. However, you're not getting your own rider any time soon.

Unfortunately, having a controller is often the mark of a newer/younger DJ, because the older ones will tend to be on CDJs (not strictly true, but it's the stereotype). Controller setups are cheaper, so they tend to be the entry-level option, which furthers this stereotype. The clubs I've been to in my area have all had DJs playing there using a variety of controllers and/or CDJs/TTs. I haven't heard of controllers being much of an issue in my area, though it does feel like a slight bias against them exists. Realistically I don't think using a controller would prevent you from getting many gigs in Boston/Rhode Island, but I couldn't really tell you about PA as I've not been.

CDJs have practical advantages; most clubs will have a pair of CDJs and a mixer so if you're comfortable mixing on those, you don't have to hook anything up when you show up to your gig; a controller setup means connecting a soundcard which can be a pain for changeovers. Convenience doesn't sound like much in the context of a bedroom, but if you can avoid having to plug into the back of the mixer (not always the easiest thing to access) in the middle of someone else's set - that's kind of a big deal. Long-run I plan on investing in CDJs and I've done the whole controller thing for years.

Real talk though: From a financial/business perspective, if you're not gigging out often enough to make a return, then this is kind of irrelevant. Buying CDJs will not make you a pro in and of itself and probably won't make the difference you're expecting them to. They do promote better habits as far as encouraging proper beatmatching instead of syncing as well as arguably more careful music management, but they won't make the difference in workflow and sound that something like a mixer will. If you just want the most enjoyable setup that will potentially last you the longest, CDJs could be a solid option. They're really expensive though, so if you're not prepared to drop around 4k for a pair of nice CDJs and a mixer to go with them you might rethink the idea. If you don't think you'll make that amount of money back by getting more gigs because you use CDJs, you're spending 4 grand on a hobby; just make sure you realize that. If money's more of a concern, I'd suggest grabbing a mixer and two technics 1200s. I grabbed my techs for 300 apiece and honestly, they're as fun or to mix on with Traktor Scratch as with 2 CDJs. This left me enough money within my budget to get a DJM 900 nexus (which honestly is excessive for my use; I didn't say I practice what I preach, but I enjoy it).

Side note: The next time I wanted to upgrade I grabbed an RMX-1000 which, next to Traktor, has been my single best DJ-related investment as far as the improvement in my sound goes. It's not perfect, but it fits my workflow beautifully and is a hell of a lot of fun.

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Thanks for your input on the subject I really appreciate it. I'm going to take a look into that.

I don't like how easy CDs scratch. I think I've heard more CDJ skip fails than I have scratchy records, lol. Maybe people feel a bit more anal about keeping records nice than CDs which can be re-burnt.

I'll take a controller over CDJs any day, but keeb ^^ pretty much covered my sentiments from the business perspective. 1200s ftw.

I think controllers will replace CDJ's

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Originally Posted by jprime

I don't like how easy CDs scratch. I think I've heard more CDJ skip fails than I have scratchy records, lol. Maybe people feel a bit more anal about keeping records nice than CDs which can be re-burnt.

I'll take a controller over CDJs any day, but keeb ^^ pretty much covered my sentiments from the business perspective. 1200s ftw.

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Can't imagine many cdj's actually play a CD nowadays. My cdj350's certainly only saw a CD once in the year I had them.

I have debated the controller / cdj thing quite extensively recently. I have been spinning for 15 years, but had a 8 year break and only got back into it recently. Bought the 350's as I was sure I had no respect for controllers. Have since sold them though, and did consider getting a good controller. BUT, I really wanted a real mixer. Can't be doing with some fiddly plastic nonsense. So bought a db4.

Now, what do I replace the cdj's with? Clearly a pair of cdj 2000 nexus'. The mixer deserves nothing less.

Plus, despite this purely being a hobby as I have never played out, if I ever got a shot at it, I'd bet my db4 that I'd see a pair of 2000's wherever I was.

Cdj's promote the need to be able to beatmatch. Controllers don't. And be cause of that, if you can play on them, you can probably play on most set-ups except pure vinyl. A skill all the best dj's should have at a minimum.

Fair enough, those 2000 nexus units look pretty ace.

My take on it is that if I were playing in clubs, I'd be using their CDJs (and turntables if they had them). I wouldn't bring anything of my own except monitoring (headphones or IEMs) and music (USB keys, backup CD wallet, and vinyl +cartridges if they had tables). And I'd have a recorded set on my phone with proper cables as a backup to their equipment. Miming a set is a really bad Plan-A, but it's better than shutting down if all their equipment is broken.

At home, CDJs don't make sense to me unless you're rolling in cash. Each CDJ-2000 costs as much as a well-loaded Macbook Pro or Air. The 3 CDJ-2000s I'd want cost as much as my next two computers, the high-end audio interface I've got a hard-on for, and an Apple Cinema display. That's right, I said "and".

They're the only things that do exactly what they do, but to me, they're just not worth the price that Pioneer is charging for them. I won't fault people for buying them. I just don't understand it right now.

That being said, I also started on vinyl and still spin it whenever I can. And the way my room is setup right now, I can't see my computer screen while I'm mixing, so technically my controller has fewer visual aids and less visual feedback than a CDJ would.

All the new CDJ's are just controllers with a CD player thrown in for sentimental reasons.

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Originally Posted by xs2man

Cdj's promote the need to be able to beatmatch. Controllers don't. And be cause of that, if you can play on them, you can probably play on most set-ups except pure vinyl. A skill all the best dj's should have at a minimum.

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But since the new CDJ 2000's have a "SYNC" button arent you contradicting yourself there??

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Originally Posted by soundinsurgent712

But since the new CDJ 2000's have a "SYNC" button arent you contradicting yourself there??

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Yes, and no. Like Jester said above, new CDJs have nearly all of the functionality of controllers if not the same. So while I agree with you that there's little to no difference between the twos' capabilities, there is still the tactile difference.

Offtopic, but would you be able to use the CDJ-2000nexus and a mixer hooked to a laptop and use traktor?

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Originally Posted by DemiAlex

Offtopic, but would you be able to use the CDJ-2000nexus and a mixer hooked to a laptop and use traktor?

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Absolutely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cAIdYDZO8

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Originally Posted by stevohill

Absolutely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0cAIdYDZO8

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Cheers, now I know what my money is gonna be saved up for:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by soundinsurgent712

But since the new CDJ 2000's have a "SYNC" button arent you contradicting yourself there??

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The new CDJ 2000's do have a sync button, yes. But this is only on one version in the range. And while it is possible to use it as purely a controller, it does not necessarily promote the use of the Sync function. It is still a standalone unit that doesn't require software to use it.

Controllers on the other hand, do absolutely promote the use of the sync button. You NEED the software to use them, and the software itself promotes the use. I'm not saying you have to use it, but its certainly too easy to just hit sync.

That said, I am not anti-sync button either. If you have the ability to beatmatch, then the sync button is a handy tool to have. And frees up more time for creative flair and other skills to be utilised. But my personal opinion is that if you NEED to use the sync button for beatmatching, then you are missing an essential skill that would allow you to play on any equipment you might come across in the "field".

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Originally Posted by stevohill

Yes, and no. Like Jester said above, new CDJs have nearly all of the functionality of controllers if not the same. So while I agree with you that there's little to no difference between the twos' capabilities, there is still the tactile difference.

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The tactile difference for me is that controllers–IMHO–tend to feel better, especially when you consider that a lot of the controllers out there give you a "setup" for about $3000 (including a high-end but not ridiculous laptop, software, and a high-end controller). You can't get 2 CDJ-2000Nexuses for that……and they're the only ones that come close in feel.

The place controllers usually fall short is the tactile experience of the mixer, and that's something that I don't see changing any time soon because people seem not to care.

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Originally Posted by DemiAlex

Offtopic, but would you be able to use the CDJ-2000nexus and a mixer hooked to a laptop and use traktor?

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You could. But then you're spending a lot of money and adding a lot of complexity without adding much functionality.

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Originally Posted by xs2man

Controllers on the other hand, do absolutely promote the use of the sync button. You NEED the software to use them, and the software itself promotes the use. I'm not saying you have to use it, but its certainly too easy to just hit sync.

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I've never had a sync button that took less work than just beat matching.

Funny story, I had played in front of people (at a house party) with my DDJ-SX before I realized it had a sync button. I was wondering why it was setting grids during the analysis. The pitch faders and bending on that thing actually feel like CDJs, which is to say that it's mindlessly easy.

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Originally Posted by xs2man

That said, I am not anti-sync button either. If you have the ability to beatmatch, then the sync button is a handy tool to have. And frees up more time for creative flair and other skills to be utilised. But my personal opinion is that if you NEED to use the sync button for beatmatching, then you are missing an essential skill that would allow you to play on any equipment you might come across in the "field".

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I disagree wholeheartedly. I can count on one hand the number of DJs I've seen/heard that I know for a fact use sync exclusively and didn't use that extra time to ruin perfectly good music…or more often, lousy music. The big reason IMHO to use sync is because it's easier……and I have no problem with that. It's just not for me because setting beat grids takes longer and is more annoying than beat matching.

Doing anything the least bit complicated (incorporating maschine, for example) kind of begs for sync, but only because Maschine isn't actually made for DJ use and doesn't have good tempo controls. If it were more based on the MC-909 than the MPC, it'd be phenomenal……and it wouldn't "need" sync.

Controllers or DVS and real analog mixer is the best of both worlds imo.
Just using a 2000$ CDJ feels wrong to me, it's just a simple deck.

They're just different mediums of control and you can't stereotype them like that.

Just like there are pro level controllers, there are bedroom level CD players.

CDJ-2000s cost more than Macbooks. And they do a lot less.

IHNFC how Pioneer can spend that much money building them. I just can't figure it out.

I'd say CDJ if you have the means. Otherwise, you are permanently hitching your wagon to software. This having been said, Denon 2900 are very nice and priced right. 3900 if you like moving platters. I think if you can get used to the CDJ style workflow, adjusting to the Pioneer takes only a minute. And the 2900 really do get along with Traktor. As soon as Engine becomes reliable, I'm no longer going to be making my living with anything NI produces. (except for Traktor on DVS, occasionally) With every revision NI pushes out, I feel a little more removed from the music, and a little more in love with 12" spinning platters.

I agree with everything except the idea that controllers absolutely tie you to software.

Just because a feature exists does not mean you have to use it. That goes for more than sync.

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Originally Posted by mostapha

I agree with everything except the idea that controllers absolutely tie you to software.

Just because a feature exists does not mean you have to use it. That goes for more than sync.

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So how do you use a controller without software then?

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IHNFC how Pioneer can spend that much money building them. I just can't figure it out.

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You aren't just paying for the build though, theres the Ridiculous amount they spend on Sponsorship, Marketing, Reaseach & Development etc etc ...

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Originally Posted by Jiggle

I think controllers will replace CDJ's

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nope. fever dream.

there will always be standalone players in clubs, controllers are never going to be standard in the DJ booth. a controller of high enough quality to be installed in a club and function reliably will cost a LOT. right now, technology and software are moving so fast that there's no guarantee that it'll be a solid investment for more than a year or two. the standalone hardware moves more slowly, is a bit more predictable, and not tied to software so it still functions even when it's outside of its support lifetime. no controller will behave like this, and they're a dime a dozen, so there's no 'standard' that they can just throw in a club and expect people to play on.

i think controllers have already found their niche and are going to stay there (which is fine!) the average DJ doesn't NEED a pair of 2000s in their house (though it's nice!) and they're going to take the place of those numark boxes with the 2 belt drives and 2 channel mixer for newbies and the high end ones are going to serve as really nice home setups for mid-level/pro DJs who don't have an interest in investing the thousands necessary in a CDJ setup. controllers are also for the DJs who really, really like tweaking the behavior of their equipment, and that's fine, but it's not the majority of DJs.

hope this didn't come off as slagging on controllers, obviously we all love 'em around here, but they're a specific tool for some specific jobs. saying they're going to replace standalone club installs is like saying corded power drivers are going to replace screw drivers - there's a lot of ways that the power drills are great and make life easier but at the end of the day for the sake of convenience, reliability and simplicity the screwdriver is definitely the more versatile tool.

Its progress, the cdj replaced the turntable by mimicking and improving on what it could do, the controller will do the same. New cdjs are more controller than cdj anyways. If your cdj plays usb, its a controller

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Originally Posted by Jiggle

Its progress, the cdj replaced the turntable by mimicking and improving on what it could do, the controller will do the same. New cdjs are more controller than cdj anyways. If your cdj plays usb, its a controller

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nah. controllers by definition don't have the ability to function headless; that's what makes them controllers. they function as control surfaces for software running on another machine somewhere else. if you're playing off USB, you're using a standalone player with a USB stick as the media.

the new cdjs can function as controllers as well, but they still can function without another machine doing the heavy lifting for them; the s4, VCI series, ergo, etc. cannot.

You see my point though? :) its only a matter of time before controllers have software built in much like the cdj does, alright its not technically a controller then, much like cdj's aren't often used for playing cd's anymore :) But these are just our points of view, we could argue all day, then tomorrow a something new might come out and replace everything. But the CD is outdated, and its only time before CD is dropped from the players name. I honestly think we will eventually see truly portable setups, like an audio focused tablet and a controller of your choice, it will be much more versatile than separate cdj's or players of any name.

p.s. Im quitting smoking, these nicotine patches make me argumentative, no offence meant anywhere bud

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Originally Posted by xs2man

So how do you use a controller without software then?

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Obviously, you don't. But for traditional DJing, it's not that different of an experience from spinning on CDJs.

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Originally Posted by Jiggle

its only a matter of time before controllers have software built in much like the cdj does

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Stanton did that, and it didn't sell…probably because they weren't willing to risk their profits on something high-end enough to really compete. Only Pioneer could really get away with building something like that and having it sell, and they're not going to do it because the CDJ-2000Nexus already has that functionality and people buy them for 2-grand each.

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Originally Posted by Jiggle

You see my point though? :) its only a matter of time before controllers have software built in much like the cdj does, alright its not technically a controller then, much like cdj's aren't often used for playing cd's anymore :) But these are just our points of view, we could argue all day, then tomorrow a something new might come out and replace everything. But the CD is outdated, and its only time before CD is dropped from the players name. I honestly think we will eventually see truly portable setups, like an audio focused tablet and a controller of your choice, it will be much more versatile than separate cdj's or players of any name.

p.s. Im quitting smoking, these nicotine patches make me argumentative, no offence meant anywhere bud

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mate i promise you you're not offending me, we're just having an honest debate really :)

again i'm not at all disagreeing on the portable front, and I think it's going to change a lot of things or mobile DJs and parties and stuff on a smaller scale, my big issue is with the assertion that standalone players like we're currently looking at are going to go away.

i guess the biggest argument i have against that is the current system works in part because there's no one point of failure. if your control dies, you're out of luck. if one standalone deck fails, you're just down one deck (and maybe embarassed mid gig)

i don't disagree that we'll see more controller-like hardware in the future though. i wouldn't be surprised if we eventually got a v2 of pro dj link that let you hook into traktor/serato instead of rekordbox in HID mode and recall all your midi maps/etc from the DJM2000 (or whatever that future mixer looks like) but I don't think it's going to be in the form of an all in one controller, imo.

that would be pretty hot, though. set up traktor however you want it on your home setup, hook up over one ethernet cable at the club and your 2ks/mixer are running in HID mode and using its sound card with all your mappings and effects in your DVS of choice right the way you left 'em. if they upped the requirement for that to gigabit i don't see why it wouldn't be doable.

I started on this forum 2 years ago, and I actually started my DJ'ing "life(? hobby?) on a Traktor Kontrol S4 a week before it's official release (threw that in there for "the cool factor" :P). Anyway I DJ'd on it for 2 years and about a year and a half in I felt my skills plateau. Let me be the first to say that I have a disposable income, however I do not believe in spending where you have no rhyme or reason to, especially when it comes to an expensive hobby - I tend to pick up what I need and try to get the best deal without going over board even where I can afford it. Keeping this in mind I could not for a very long time justify the expense of CDJ's and the mixer when I felt like I was getting the same experience out of my Kontrol S4. After another 6 months of feeling like I wasn't doing anything different and my skills weren't improving I decided to take the plunge and pick up a mixer for CDJ's i had picked up earlier - got them both for about $2000 total (CDJ 850-K's (used in excellent condition) & DJM 850-K brand new).

I can tell you with extreme certainty that within the next week itself I found myself improving in multiple ways. Firstly my beatmatching ability had already increased exponentially. I felt comfortable for the first time being able to go up and play or do anything without sync. Secondly, I found myself not staring at a screen the entire time I was DJ'ing (I do a radio show once a week online) which allowed me to focus more on the music. And lastly, I realized I was actually FEELING my music instead of looking at readouts on my MBPs screen to tell me when to do what.

I just felt SO much more connected with the music. The whole process re-invigorated me and to be honest before I switched setups (maybe it was cause I switched things up after so long that helped?) I was really losing interest in DJ'ing.

Ahh and most importantly now I have the confidence to walk up to any setup and throw down a set. And all of this happened in the last three weeks. I can't begin to imagine how different it'll be in a month or two, or how confident it'll make me.

Coming from a dude who will never bash controllers, but has been there and started there, if you can dish out the cash - CDJ's all the way (or fully analogue with a pair of TT's and a mixer - no DVS).

Jus' my two cents.