Id love to get a bit of discussion on this, so im hoping to stir up NI.
Here is my complete unhinged rant on the subject:
http://www.native-instruments.com/fo...letter.230198/
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Id love to get a bit of discussion on this, so im hoping to stir up NI.
Here is my complete unhinged rant on the subject:
http://www.native-instruments.com/fo...letter.230198/
I get the feeling it's not completely NI's fault in this, but that they are a third party stuck between two first parties who don't play well together in the schoolyard. It's just a hunch, I have nothing to back that up.
Although I have no stake in this, I'm curious as to how this will play out.
That's actually not a rant, sounds reasonable to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
Yeah....I'm really sorry. But I just can't bring myself to care. (ETA: ...on NI's side. It sucks for you)
A long time ago, I tried FLAC and ALAC. Thanks to using a variety of devices and not liking mp3s, there wasn't a compressed format that would play on everything. Back then, drive space was still relatively expensive ( $2/GB for SSDs ), and I managed to switch just about everything to aiff.
It's been a while, SSDs cost about 1/4 of what they did then, and nothing's changed. There still isn't a compressed file format that I like that will play on everything I have.
I really don't get what the big deal is. Storage is still cheap, and it's not like you've got the excuse that Apple doesn't like letting people upgrade components anymore.
That's really, really bad form on NI's part.
I had a similar problem when I started using Rekordbox recently; ALAC isn't supported, and that has been my lossless format of choice for a long time. The difference there, though, is that I knew that going in; it's never supported ALAC.
Having support, and then taking it away, is not on.
I have to say that this thread title is slightly misleading.
As is evident in the KB article, NI didn't drop support for ALAC, rather that Apple is forcing them down this road by deprecating support for Quicktime - big big difference. NI are trying to put ALAC support back in themselves with no help from Apple.
I am not saying that it has been handled particularly well by NI nor that the anger is misplaced but this is clearly something that is being forced on NI and not NI forcing it on the users.
I can't speak for Rekordbox as I rarely use it and I don't use ALAC but maybe Pioneer are suffering the same issue with Apple that NI are.
For the record I have been speaking privately with ImNoDJ on this matter for some weeks so I'm not just wading in trying to blindly defend NI. I have been in constant contact with NI support on this matter due to it's affect on some of the NI forum members.
Karlos
Apple/Quicktime is probably one of the bigger pains in digital audio. I really don't know what the big deal is with them, but yeah...I believe it's Apple's fault.
IIRC, Avid stuff tends to have some differences b/t OSX and Windows because of quicktime as well.
I think youve missed the crux. Youve also misunderstood that this issue only affects ALAC on PC. It works fine on Mac. Im a PC user.Quote:
Originally Posted by mostapha
The issue is that NI has completely destroyed any trace of my traktor library if i ever wish to upgrade again.
Once I change to a different file format, I lose everything, my playlists, cues, loops, history. All the stuff I use every day for DJing.
I estimate at least 50 hours to do this, including a bunch of scripting to make it quicker.
They did this with no notice and no explanation.
Dont forget they released 2.7 and it said that 24 bit ALAC support was included. It was broken from the beginning.
NI has either been incompetent or fraudulent about this, there really isnt any third option.
Karlos,Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
Im sorry but NI have been completely evasive and uncommuniative from the very beginning.
Regardless of what Apple did, the fact that NI posted a patch with a new feature that they clearly didnt test is incompetence. To then blame that on Apple is pathetic. This is a problem with NIs process and communication.
Apple and MS do not change these things overnight, they have roadmaps. If they told me about this 6 months ago, i would have been miffed, but I would have gotten on with my life.
The fact that they will completely remove a feature of Traktor, unanounced that destroys my entire library, means they will probably do it again.
Is there some other way I should be looking at this?
When am I supposed to spend the 50+ hours I estimate its going to take to completely and manually rebuild my playlists, cues, loops, gains, BPMs? Is this reasonable that I should have to do this with no notice?
Im clearly one of the only people this affects, but in my case its catastrophic.
I work in large scale IT mate, this is unnaceptable behaviour.
If it's that big of a deal that things keep working, why would you go all in on alac? It's kind of a niche format in a world of niche formats.
Does traktor not support flac, and do you really need the space savings?
Basically.....this happens with QuickTime. Why trust it in the first place?
Thats irrelevant, isnt it?It was %100 supported by Traktor until the second they dropped it. It also is still supported by many many apps. It was also the only lossless format they recommended for use with Itunes.Quote:
Originally Posted by mostapha
The format is irrelevant, I can script them to FLAC very easily, but my TRaktor collection is still destroyed in the process. Im specifically angry about that part, not the dropping of support as such.
Traktor does, Itunes doesnt. My whole 250 gb library is based on itunes, and my whole multiroom audio system is built on itunes. I have to have duplicate libraries now with all the complication that entails. Did you actually read my post? All your questions are covered in there.Quote:
Does traktor not support flac, and do you really need the space savings?
As I stated, I will need to provide an extra %30-50 storage, on three computers that make up my DJ computers and backup server. Why should I have to do this at no notice because NI management is incompetent?
Even if i do convert to FLAC, the files are not compatible with Traktors one and only supported music manager. This is where I find the whole thing so confusing as to what NI are playing at.
Again I dont care about the file types. I care about the time it will take me to get back to exactly where I was before the update. This will be at least 50 hours and will be painful. How would you feel If i wiped all your digital dj history of the last two years?
[/QUOTE]Basically.....this happens with QuickTime. Why trust it in the first place?[/QUOTE]
Thats just silly. Its nothing to do with QT. Its to do with NI dropping a major file type with zero notice. Every other ALAC compatible app on Windows still works perfectly. The ALAC decoder is open source.
If NI said it was because of QT licencing fees, then at least that would be some explanation.
This is fucking bull. I run totally ALAC aside from MP3 only freebies on Soundcloud. Guess I'm done updating Traktor.
Sorry to hear it dude. I was beginning to think I was the only one lols.Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
Far from I'd be willing to bet. Just in my (albeit small circle) I know at least 7 other DJs who run all ALAC.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
The knowledge base article says that they are working on a solution and that the problem occured because of external reasons.
Easiest solution for now. Don't upgrade and wait till they are done... (unless you are using an S8 of course)
Youve not read my post, and you dont understand the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheikyerbouti
What else should they do? Send a personal coach to your place to help you out in your life threatening situation? They responded and they are working on it... basta. Now stop flooding the whole internet with your problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
Are you sure, the problem applies to you? Looks to me like ALAC support is only gone on Windows ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by ProfessorStrangeman
Yep it's only Windows. Macosx and ÎOS are unaffected.Quote:
Originally Posted by 3heads
And yet every other windows app still plays ALAC perfectly even though NI claim it's caused by MS and apple. So baffling.
Well I don't know which app you are talking about, but I would assume that its simply a playback app and not a complex DJ software?! I mean... if it was that simple, why would they drop the support in the first place? Just to piss of users? Because they don't like windows? They will address the problem with suitable ressources.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
I disagree with this statement. It's not necessarily ImNoDJ's problem, it's a problem that potentially affects a lot of people.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheikyerbouti
Uhh.....I tend to do that periodically to clear out cruft anyway. I get it if you're a mobile DJ and think you need a huge, searchable library. But even then, I'm pretty sure all but one of the mobile guys I've ever seen could have palyed off of the same 200 record collection.Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
But, I'm also not one of those guys who meticulously sets loop and mix points. If the beatgrid is good, it's good. And 2.7.1 seems to actually get it right more often than not. So the whole "do I want to set a beat grid again" becomes a very easy litmus test for "is it time to get rid of this song?".
If the library I actually used for DJing was big enough to complain about, I'd be thankful for it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
This happens with quicktime periodically.Quote:
Originally Posted by NI kb that you posted
My honest suggestion.....figure out the <100 songs you actually play, convert therm to aiff and prep them, and leave the rest alone. Either NI or Apple will fix it or you'll buy a bigger drive this weekend.
I was going to post something similar. After switching my gear to CDJs I found out that I could no long use FLAC and ended up culling about 70% of my collection and was all the happier for it. When practicing, if a track comes to mind that I haven't converted to AIF yet I make a note...otherwise meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by mostapha
Seriously, you've got no idea what you're talking about in the technical sense when it comes to playback codecs. I don't believe they did this on purpose of course. I think this is a management decision that overruled the developers. I've seen this many, many times.Quote:
Originally Posted by sheikyerbouti
NI have a long history of never admitting a fuck up. They will not even tell you what the current issues with 271 are. They make every user find out for themselves.
Their management has completely stopped the developers from engaging with the customers in the On the Record forum. The maschine on the record hasn't been updated in a year, the traktor on the record hasn't been updated in 2 years.
I know how the business of development works, this is not how you drop support for a feature. You are defending NI for releasing broken software. This isn't a small impact.
NI rushed 2.7 out the door because of the Amazon s8 leak. 2.6.8 is mature and stable. 2.7.1 has 6 Google pages of show stopping bugs for certain users.
NI can only get away with this as their user base is so small and niche. I'm a niche user in a niche user base.
24 bit ALAC support was requested since 2011. NI said it was 'coming'. They announced it with fanfare in the 2.7 patch notes, people on the forum were happy. Until they tried to load a file and found an error message.
We were then told over the last 4 weeks they were working on it. Then they just announce they are dropping it. No explanation of why they announced a broken feature, and why their testing seemed to miss something so major.
Imagine NI dropped support for MP3 with no warning. Imagine how disruptive that might be to your gigging.
Even though you're a bit thick, I've appreciated you bumping my post all over the Internet.
NI dropping mp3 support would be a good thing.
I want to take pains to explain that I have no issue with NI support, or development.Quote:
Originally Posted by Karlos Santos
This whole saga points to something very broken in management.
Karlos, I don't accept that this was a surprise foisted on NI.
You are suggesting that Apple and MS forced NI to release broken software. That dog doesn't hunt. Apple and MS did not write the 2.7 patch notes which specified 24 bit ALAC support, NI did. Can you provide any possible scenario where this was missed in beta testing?
I can guarantee you that not one single beta tester was using ALAC on windows with 2.7, otherwise this would have been caught. They rushed this out.
Why did they announce a broken feature that was never going to work?
I've dealt with both Apple and Ms, they do not deprecate overnight. They have road maps. As far as I understand it, there is literally nothing stopping NI from forking the open source ALAC decoder.
A better company would have let their users know that ALAC was becoming deprecated, and given them months to adjust their libraries.a good company will pay a developer to make a couple of tools that would ease this transition, and transfer traktor information between file types.
This isn't about the technology, it's about the indifference of the impact on the users. I've been in the business of IT long enough to smell bullshit, and it's all over this.
Well that got a lol outta me :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by mostapha
Maybe it's time to switch software if you're this pissed.
I've switched for being mad at things lime that. Hell, I think I ditched windows for something like that. And, I'm about to start evaluating freebsd as opposed to Linux for daily use because I don't like redhat's roadmap.
These things happen. They suck, but they happen.
I do appreciate the advice, but I will point out that Ive worked in IT my whole life. 20 years as an enterprise PC tech, the last few years as a business manager. Im not just ranting without understanding how the business of development works.Quote:
Originally Posted by mostapha
I also dont need any technical advice with how to deal with it, nor any judgements about how much my time is worth to rebuild my library.
This is all beside the point. My DJ library only has 1000 songs. But they are playlists honed over years to be perfect for particular moods. I dont need to revisit them, I just know they are there when I need them. Now they arent.
If I do a html dump from Traktor now, and then print out and rebuild them manually, this is going to take at least 10-20 hours.
I could probably spend the time to build a script to do it, but why am i spending time to fix something NI broke without notice?
And what will they do next?
I know the sound of ass covering, and Its coming loud from NI.
I dont want to switch, I really like Traktor. I want NI to treat their users with respect and actually communicate to them about their direction.
Removing a feature with no notice is unacceptable in IT.
Blaming someone else for forcing you for releasing broken software is a dick move.
Part of my job is to assess Change impact on users. We work out what changes will affect which users, and help them plan for and to get through it.
NI either dont have this, or they do and they dont care. This is what is rotten in NI currently. They know they can get away with it.
Let me remind you that 24-bit ALAC support was requested on the forums since 2011. A year or two later, NI said they were looking at. Another year or two later they release 2.7 with 24-bit support in the patch notes.
Except it wasnt, and it was broken on release. This is evidence of a very weird development/roadmap process.
Your comments are valid and I can empathize.
When I changed from FLAC to AIF I was in a similar situation except my decision was more or less voluntary. When I started replacing my FLAC encoded tracks I simply re-encoded into AIF and deleted my old track. Traktor would notify me of the missing track(s) and I would point it to the correct folder et viola, the tracks would re-import with stripes/tags/grid/cues. Maybe this would work the same for you? Would save you a lot of time and perhaps worth looking into.
I should note that going from mp3 to FLAC years ago was a nightmare because the grid would offset using the aforementioned method.
Thanks for your input, and this is probably my first option should NI not provide any tools for us. Ill start doing some conversion tests of the Traktor library using your method this weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by space monkey
The issues with AIFF is storage space, which just means I need to rethink my entire storage and backup system. Ill have to add more raid drives and rebuild the array. Ill need up to %50 more storage and backup on each computer.
I built a file management and backup system based on the filetypes Traktor officially supported. I thought it was going to be good for years.
The time and cost investment isnt negligable.
And to be honest, I have zero confidence that NI wont do to AIFF on PC the exact same thing they just did to ALAC.
Actually that should work. I just remembered being surprised how possible it was when I switched from wav to aiff. Pointing it at the new files worked, and it surprised me that it kept everything. I was planning on redoing beat grids and doing everything else.
I was with you until you said you used iTunes on Windows... dude use Foobar 2000 instead, is the best!
sounds like your in a bind though, hope NI sort it out in an update pretty soon.
I ditched Traktor 3 years ago I still install and update it... I really don't know why... Bought a serato Setup and felt it provided a more authentic feel that I was lacking
There is nothing stopping Pioneer from supporting FLAC, apart from Pioneer. Same applies to Apple and iTunes/iDevices. I use FLAC, I'd like if I could also use it on my iPhone, or sync it into Rekordbox, but in the meantime I have a folder of MP3 conversions just for those cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojaxx
Not helpful in this context.Quote:
Originally Posted by lucidstrings
no offense, but the way you talk you have terabytes of ALAC files. That seems way towards the right side of a bell curve of collection size...even for a DJ. So eitherQuote:
Originally Posted by ImNoDJ
a. you don't have as much music as you're saying you do, and you're being histrionic for no reason whatsoever
b. you have every song in the history of recorded audio, in which case you have no idea what you have, you don't use even a tenth of it in traktor, and you're being histrionic about how much extra space your transcoding effort will require when what you should realize is that you're the edgiest of edge cases, and are ALWAYS going to have issues because of it. No developer in their wet dreams includes what you do in their use cases.