P.A School (General Advice).

[Karlos Santos]

Public Address systems.
Talk to me. Obviously I know something about them, I've been destroying them for well over 15 years as a DJ but I am thinking of buying one for an events company (long story that we may come back to).
So tell me what you know and assume you are talking to a noob.

Here's the requirements (please note this is a hastily conceived thread) so I might change my ideas:

- Max capacity of venue lets say 300 people. More likely to be 100 - 150 but I may need to be able to do a slightly larger event and I don't want to ruin the system.
- Must be assembled by one person so think portability but not compromising on sound quality.
- Must fit in a small van. You know the kind VW Caddy, Vauxhall Combo etc.
- Do I want powered speakers or a separate amp? I'm thinking powered with a separate multi channel mixer for mics and the input from the DJ mixer which will have 2 x Technics, 2 x CDJ and Traktor..

Things to consider.
- Power (electricity) requirements. I won't be using a generator.
- It will not be used by live bands but 'could' be used for karaoke.

I'll add more as I think of them.

I'm thinking 2 tops and 2 subs - ones that have caught my eye are Mackie Thumps and JBL EON515XT but only cus they are in local store and look pretty.

Money is not infinite but I'd like range of choices please. I do not want to buy a budget system only to regret it and buy twice but I'm not putting the Foo Fighters on at a festival. Think weddings, parties, weddings, birthdays, weddings, so pretty much weddings.

I really am at the infancy stage of this idea and I have just blurted this thread out without much thought and I know there are dedicated wedding DJ forums but hey, lets try home turf first.

Over to you guys please.

[soundinmotiondj]

- Max capacity of venue lets say 300 people. More likely to be 100 - 150 but I may need to be able to do a slightly larger event and I don't want to ruin the system.
- Must be assembled by one person so think portability but not compromising on sound quality.
- Must fit in a small van. You know the kind VW Caddy, Vauxhall Combo etc.
- Do I want powered speakers or a separate amp? I'm thinking powered with a separate multi channel mixer for mics and the input from the DJ mixer which will have 2 x Technics, 2 x CDJ and Traktor..

To meet all those requirements....

Four QSC KLA12's (@ $1800/ea), Four KSUBS (@ $850/ea).

You will need two tops & two subs for 100-150 people. With four tops & four subs you could handle 300 (to maybe 500) people. The system will be able to "coast" running on "8" or under.

Once you add subs, there is no reason to have tops larger than 10" to 12". A 15" loaded top will be 50% heavier and 1/3 more pack space with (almost) no benefit to output...since the subs are handling the <100Hz content.

A&H Zed mixer, sized to your needs would be "entry level" analog mixer for "live sound" style applications. The Behringer X32 is getting really nice reviews for a digital mixer. Once you go digital, you will NOT want to go back.

I'm thinking 2 tops and 2 subs - ones that have caught my eye are Mackie Thumps and JBL EON515XT but only cus they are in local store and look pretty.

I thought you said you didn't want to compromise on sound quality....???

If local pick up, or the ability to fondle the hardware ahead of purchase is a requirement, you should add that to your list. I totally feel you on that. Just beware, that the "small" listening room is NOT the best way to critically listen to a speaker. At that point, we'd need to know a lot more about your local stores and shopping options.

I am not a fan of the Mackie or JBL EON lines. Maybe you won't care, maybe you will.

Honestly, EVERY PA system benefits from EQ and other processing. A digital PA manager (DRPA, DRPX, Behringer DEQ/DCX, etc) is a REQUIRED piece of equipment (at least IME). Many will have pre-sets for different powered speakers, and many manufacturers will have recommended settings for different PA managers.

So...what PA systems have sounded good to you? Maybe that is a good place to start.

[William Gibson]

SIM, you probably know a lot more then me but I have done probably 200 hours worth or research on all QSC speakers. Watched every video on youtube and read every thread I can get my hands in. 95% seemed to say the ksub is garbage for low end and compares more to a mid range speaker. On the other hand, the kw181 was just a beast for low end.

2 kla12s and 2 kw181s have been in my shopping cart on zzzounds for a year now. Everytime my wife sees me eyeing the submit button she threatens divorce....

[soundinmotiondj]

SIM, you probably know a lot more then me but I have done probably 200 hours worth or research on all QSC speakers. Watched every video on youtube and read every thread I can get my hands in. 95% seemed to say the ksub is garbage for low end and compares more to a mid range speaker. On the other hand, the kw181 was just a beast for low end.

Alliteration is difficult to interpret when talking about Pro Audio.

The real difficulty in recommending QSC products is the horrendous lack of specs.

But, this is a fair enough critique. The OP suggested the Mackie Thump as a possible sub choice. The TH18s is 73 pounds and 6.95 cuft, and does not include casters. This offers a "-3dB" points at 50Hz to 115Hz. The TH18s has a street price of $700.

The KW181 is 88 pounds, and does have integrated casters. This is a "single 18" loaded active subwoofer. The "-6dB" points are 38Hz and 124Hz. What the curve looks like between those points is anyone's guess. The cabinet is not quite a cube - 20" x 24" x 30" (8.33 cuft). The KW181 has a $1400 street price.

The KSUB is 74 pounds, and has integrated casters. This is a "dual 12" loaded active subwoofer. The "-6dB" points are 48 Hz and 134 Hz. The cabinet is 26" x 14" x 28" (5.90 cuft). The KSUB has a $850 street price.

The peak outputs should be similar. With a digital PA manager, the shape of the SPL curve can be adjusted to whatever is desired.

The KSUB offers substantially better performance compared to the Mackie TH18s, with similar size/weight considerations, with a slightly larger price point. The tops I recommended are $1800/ea compared to the OPs suggestion of JBL EON515XT @ $350/ea. I do think the tops will make enough difference to the overall sound to be worth that premium. Even so, I did not want to come back again and recommend subs that were another 2x increment in cost.

The KSUB is 40% less pack space, and more than 15% lighter. There is a 10Hz difference in low end frequency roll off. That is a thing. BUT, both subs are really only OK for "live sound" applications....neither is impressive for the low-low end of most modern EDM. Both are somewhere in the middle in terms of typical DJ content - for Top 40, Pop, Disco, R&B, C&W content....both subs are OK, but not stellar. The KW181 will have more low end than the KSUB for sure.

For the difference in performance between the KSUB and the KW181, the difference in size & weight and cost is hard to justify. YMMV.

[mostapha]

Fwiw, I remember being a lot more impressed with that whole qsc line than the little jbl or Mackie thing back when I worked at GC (c. 2006), and they might have been updated since then. Hell, they might not even be the same line.

That being said, it was REALLY hard to sell them. Everybody wanted to spend a lot less and wound up with eons/similar and blasted people with nothing audible but distorted snares. Or, they were buying a passive system, at which point, it was easy to sell QSC and usually sounded better, you know, for a lot more money.

Still, I think a rack case with casters and much lighter cabs are easy to pack/carry....except for getting the 100lb+ amp rack back into the car.

[b ill]

Since you are in the UK look into RCF. Their 312a is a very nice well balanced top for moderate volume events - way better than Mackie Thumps. It's not that RCF is going to be any less expensive over there than in the US necessarily - it's more that US based stuff costs so much more from what I've picked up. They make a wide variety of subs too - 15s and even a 12 as well as 18s. Even though I've never heard a powered RCF sub they should be good considering the rep of the brand.

I also like Yamaha DSR112s for tops. Yamaha subs not so much, but they would be OK for what you're doing. JBL PRX700 series is also a good safe choice. I wouldn't advise mixing brands for a variety or reasons.

It sounds like sub choice will be dictated primarily by van size. You are just going to have to measure and do the best you can.

External signal processing is not necessary or even advisable for this application.

You can also get by with a Behringer mixer for this application. It will not be the weak link in your system. I'm a full time DJ who supplements his income with weeknight karaoke. I'm currently using a QX1622 for my karaoke shows, and it's perfect. It's quiet, the plate reverbs are very smooth, and it has individual channel compression (absolutely necessary for karaoke - to not go without this feature!)

I'm a club DJ on a lot of systems. My personal system is JBL SRX. If budget allows, an STX system powered by Class D amps with front end DSP will be a huge step up from any of the above.

[Karlos Santos]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'll get around to replying properly in the morning.

[SirReal]

FWIW, I own 2 QSC K12's and have played some house parties and weddings 100+ people with the bass extension switch on, no problem. While a sub would be nice, I haven't found it necessary. I was able to fill a 2400 Sqft open space barn with room to spare.

[Karlos Santos]

MODS - this thread was moved without a redirect (thanks) so I had to search for it.
It does not comply with the criteria of the Hardware: Controllers, Mods and Gear subforum as it is not about a specific product, a modification or controller nor about reviews so doesn't belong there. Also both Bentosan's and Jesters rule posts state "Use General Discussion for "what to buy".

Peace.

[This is a moderated post and not viewable to members]

[frankle]

Not having used the Mackie or JBL product for a large number of years so can't make comment on them.

Here in Melbourne (Australia) there's plenty of RCF, and I've owned several sets. Currently I have a pair of ART310A speakers as foldbacks, but I used to use them for FoH with a 12" RCF TTS12-A sub ... Awesome compact powered system good for upto 150 people in wedding situations or about 120 for 21st functions. Only reason I sold the sub, I was offered a Nexo PS8 system at a rate I couldn't pass up, it's an extremely impressive compact system that I now use for my smaller to mid sized gigs and so I've just kept the 310's as utility wedges to take to gigs where the in-house system doesn't have any foldback.

Now back to your dilemma ... Not sure how pricing goes in the UK but how about:

QSC Options
2 x K10 & 2 x KSUB - very balanced compact system, it's the minimum I'd recommend.
2 x KW122 & 1 x KW181 - wooden boxes, sound much better than the plastic K-series but larger, more expensive - add an additional sub if funds/space allows.

RCF Options
2 x ART310A & 2 x SUB705AS - starting point for RCF, similar results to K10/KSUB system
2 x HD12A & 1 x 4PRO8003AS - bigger sub, more powerful 12" tops, still easily manageable by 1 person but sub will need castor kit - once again a second sub would be great but size and money are going to come into play as they're reasonably expensive.

EV Options
2 x ELX112P & 2 x ELX118P - their ZLX are entry level tops (no sub) but the ELX have been around a while and work quite well although no wheel kits for subs and it's quite large compared to other similar priced systems for not much extra output.
2 x ETX10P & 2 x ETX15SP - mid priced reasonably compact system, wooden enclosures, US designed and assembled, more power than most of it's size - but probably quite expensive compared to other compact systems.
2 x ETX12P & 1 x ETX18SP - probably cheaper than buying the ETX10P/ETX15SP due to only 1 sub (as the subs are very close in price) so getting a second sub would be ideal - great power, quality output and crossover option on the speakers.

Nexo "money is no problem" Option
2 x PS10 R2 (left/right) & 2 x SL600 15" Subs, powered by NXAMP4x1 - exceptionally clean, powerful and portable system for upto 300 people, not exactly earth shatteringly strong in the bottom end but very balanced and little need to EQ any nasty frequencies out ... it's quite true that as you pay more there's less you need to do to make it sound good.

Other things to consider - external processing (comp/limiter) and EQ. I run a variety of outboard gear depending on the gig, but most of the time for general DJ use I have a compressor or limiter there to stop the amps from running into clip, or like I've had a few times, for when a half-clued-up punter knows where the master volume is when you're not looking. Minimum recommended is a DBX 166XS, but if you can get a Drawmer MX30 it'll sound better, and if you want something better again (what I normally use) a pair of DBX 160A compressors are hard to beat for the money.

EQ is another handy tool, especially if you're going to be doing karaoke with a few live mics. I've used quite a number of them over the years and from these the lowest recommended to highest it goes something like: DBX 1231 (anything under this is hardly worth it), DBX 2231, Klark SQ1G, BSS Opal, Rane SEQ30L or GE60 (still got both of these but discontinued), LA Audio EQ231G, XTA GQ600, Klark DN360, Klark DN370.

The trend these days is to go for an external "do it all" processor, and although convenient being that it's contained in 1RU unless you're going to spend quite a bit on an XTA or Xilica or similar (nothing Driverack or Behringer) then you'll get better results out of the old-school Comp/EQ setup. Most powered speaker systems also have some crossover options and limiting so some mild compression and EQ a few frequencies that poke out are all that most need.

Mixer for mics - I used to carry around a Xone:464 that I'd mix a Duo with and then DJ between their sets, such a great sounding mixer ... but these days I've got a little A&H ZED60-10FX and then whatever DJ mixer I fancy for the gig. It's compact and sounds decent and without going overboard and getting a Midas Venice or digital mixer (Qu-16) it does the job. Also available with 8 mic pre's instead of 4 (ZED60-14FX).

Foldback Speaker - Not that it's really required for all gigs but consider getting one or two so that you can hear what's going on and if you get some serious karaoke people they'll also appreciate it ... but you'll need another mono/stereo EQ for sure!

Hope this helps, sorry for the length but this type of thing is what I do!