Want to buy a "traditional" midrange priced DJ controller? Consider the APC40!

[charo]

korg koss or something like that?

fyi the apc40 is like $253 at amazon.com

[mostapha]

Personally, I think the APC-40 is a complete failure. It doesn't have a straightforward EQ section; it has far too many channels if you're not using multi-tracks (in Ableton); it's weird to label things…

There's a max4live patch that can turn it into a step sequencer, which would be kinda cool for production, but…for DJing I see it as worthless. Obviously, a lot of people disagree with me, and a lot of them use it very well.

My advice for looking at controllers is to figure out what you want to control…design your ideal controller (on paper) from scratch…and see what fits best. The downside is that you might run out of controls if you don't think far enough ahead, but for DJing, I think there are MUCH better options.

[chelskisw6]

but for DJing, I think there are MUCH better options.

Such as??

[mostapha]

Such as??

For what Program?

Honestly, I think it's one of the worst controllers out there. For a traditional DJ program (things that look like Traktor), almost every entry is more straightforward and IMO that just makes them better. I don't want 40 identical-looking buttons to keep track of in my head or with shoddy labels, even if they're colored. I don't want the controller to completely lack obvious EQ controls.

For a traditional DJ program, any variation of the VCI series, the TR-1, the faderfox dj2, the xponent, even the hercules stuff…they're all more straightforward and laid out in a way that makes sense for traditional DJing.

But the thing was designed for Ableton Live, and I also think it sucks at that for a lot of the same reasons. Yes, it has EQ controls…but they suck. It's device control paradigm is asinine, along with every other controller that shares it (including my VCM, though I've defeated it in Ableton's setup). You won't get the direct control you want without finding it first, and if you select the device wrong, there's almost no telling what you're going to actually be doing.

If you're using a lot of dummy clips for your effects, I can see the thing being more useful, but it seems like the technique is just meant to make up for the shortcomings of Ableton controllers.

As far as what's better, the VCM-600 (that I know costs 3-4x as much) is more than twice the controller. But, honestly, so is the faderfox LD2. It's not obvious, but the thing can do more than the APC-40 even if it's almost as convoluted to get to.

And if you want the controllerism thing, just build the controller you see in your head. Midibox stuff isn't that hard to work with, and if you have an idea of what you want to do, you'll wind up with something a LOT better than the apc-40.

[chelskisw6]

For what Program?

Honestly, I think it's one of the worst controllers out there. For a traditional DJ program (things that look like Traktor), almost every entry is more straightforward and IMO that just makes them better. I don't want 40 identical-looking buttons to keep track of in my head or with shoddy labels, even if they're colored. I don't want the controller to completely lack obvious EQ controls.

For a traditional DJ program, any variation of the VCI series, the TR-1, the faderfox dj2, the xponent, even the hercules stuff…they're all more straightforward and laid out in a way that makes sense for traditional DJing.

But the thing was designed for Ableton Live, and I also think it sucks at that for a lot of the same reasons. Yes, it has EQ controls…but they suck. It's device control paradigm is asinine, along with every other controller that shares it (including my VCM, though I've defeated it in Ableton's setup). You won't get the direct control you want without finding it first, and if you select the device wrong, there's almost no telling what you're going to actually be doing.

If you're using a lot of dummy clips for your effects, I can see the thing being more useful, but it seems like the technique is just meant to make up for the shortcomings of Ableton controllers.

As far as what's better, the VCM-600 (that I know costs 3-4x as much) is more than twice the controller. But, honestly, so is the faderfox LD2. It's not obvious, but the thing can do more than the APC-40 even if it's almost as convoluted to get to.

And if you want the controllerism thing, just build the controller you see in your head. Midibox stuff isn't that hard to work with, and if you have an idea of what you want to do, you'll wind up with something a LOT better than the apc-40.

For Ableton

I am seriously stuck as to which controller to get. I want the controller to be good for DJing, but also studio friendly.

Compared to the launchpad, the APC40 has many more options, but as you mentioned the layout isnt as DJ friendly and I would really like three knobs for controlling EQs.

The VCM 600 looks awesome, but super pricey, especially considering that I am just getting to terms with the software and am still not 100% convinced of making a complete digital switch over (I use CDJs right now)

[Navcore]

For what Program?

Honestly, I think it's one of the worst controllers out there. For a traditional DJ program (things that look like Traktor), almost every entry is more straightforward and IMO that just makes them better. I don't want 40 identical-looking buttons to keep track of in my head or with shoddy labels, even if they're colored. I don't want the controller to completely lack obvious EQ controls.

For a traditional DJ program, any variation of the VCI series, the TR-1, the faderfox dj2, the xponent, even the hercules stuff…they're all more straightforward and laid out in a way that makes sense for traditional DJing.

But the thing was designed for Ableton Live, and I also think it sucks at that for a lot of the same reasons. Yes, it has EQ controls…but they suck. It's device control paradigm is asinine, along with every other controller that shares it (including my VCM, though I've defeated it in Ableton's setup). You won't get the direct control you want without finding it first, and if you select the device wrong, there's almost no telling what you're going to actually be doing.

If you're using a lot of dummy clips for your effects, I can see the thing being more useful, but it seems like the technique is just meant to make up for the shortcomings of Ableton controllers.

As far as what's better, the VCM-600 (that I know costs 3-4x as much) is more than twice the controller. But, honestly, so is the faderfox LD2. It's not obvious, but the thing can do more than the APC-40 even if it's almost as convoluted to get to.

And if you want the controllerism thing, just build the controller you see in your head. Midibox stuff isn't that hard to work with, and if you have an idea of what you want to do, you'll wind up with something a LOT better than the apc-40.

Excuse me, but have you worked with the APC40?

I did my first traktor gig with it last weekend, and believe me, you really get easily used to the mappings! without any stickers telling you what is what...

Right now I am mapping it for some of the Fader FX stuff ean golden does on the VCI100SE, goes pretty neat as well.

And how can you say that the LD2 has more options than the APC40? The APC40 has those 16 knobs, with 8 of them being easily bidirectionally programmed so they are actually mapped to 8 pages, so 8x8 = 64 fully mappable knobs that change thair state to whatever button you program them to.

MIDI mapping is as complex as you want it to be, one button can do many things. The APC40 is really worth the money, I even have spoken about this with people studying at the music academy. The feeling is great, the amount of buttons and built in routing is great. It is really 100% worth the money.

All those controllers you mentioned for traditional DJing are built with much cheaper components and give less functionality. If they were sold for 30% of their actual price, fair deal. But for being in the same pricerange as the APC40, noooo way.

As I mentioned before, the fact that they look as if they "make more sense" for traditional DJing is just a way to lure you into buying them. Believe me, you will definitley get used to he APC40 for programs like traktor. It is a matter of practice. And I am not talking about 8 hours per day, just a little bit. You will remember which button does what.
Do piano players have labels on their keys?

[mostapha]

The VCM 600 looks awesome, but super pricey, especially considering that I am just getting to terms with the software and am still not 100% convinced of making a complete digital switch over (I use CDJs right now)

I hear that. Committing to that $1000 (after taxes and shipping) controller was a head trip.

For me, it was simple…the first time I saw Sasha's Maven in person (when he was spinning in Atlanta…Steve Porter opened for him and was nice enough to chat w/ me a bit between mixes and let me hang out in the booth for a minute…did the same thing at Ultra…nice guy) I knew what basically every control did, even if I didn't know how he had his software configured. Something went "click," and I knew that was how I wanted to DJ even though I was on vinyl at the time and just contemplating buying my first CDJ. At the time, there was nothing even close on the market. Now, there is.

$1000 is a lot to pay for a controller, but it's not a lot to pay for a Maven with more controls and no dedicated sound card to blow up and ruin the thing.

As far as getting something that is also studio friendly…you've got me beat. What little I do in a production environment anymore, I do with a mouse. I can't play a keyboard well enough to buy one, and the VCM is just wrong for it. I bought it just for DJing, and I couldn't be happier. But I've never really cared about controllers for production…I rarely want to do more than one thing at a time, I do everything in the box, and every DAW I've used has really good automation.

The only one that really appealed to me (the Presonus FaderPort) apparently still isn't supported in Live, though if you're using Logic or Pro Tools, it seems like it would work.

[Zac Kyoti]

@Mostapha:
Wow, such venom! Dude, the old "here's my decks and a mixer" paradigm doesn't hold a lot of weight if you are a creative thinker. Just accepting Ableton's mapping strategy might lead you to think that the APC isn't "good" for djing. But thinking outside the box, doing the mapping yourself and being good at it opens up a world of possibilities. Throw in Bome's MT (my weapon of choice), or M4L and you are limited literally only by your imagination.

The APC is just a collection of knobs, buttons and faders. The arrangement of controls is up to you - but what makes or breaks that unit is how it's mapped, IMHO. I rock that box like crazy, but it took a long time to refine. I think it's bullshit to need everything laid out like a traditional mixer, you just need to be smart about how you do it. Notice how there's 4 knobs in a row left to right? Perfect for gain and 3 eqs for decks stacked on top of each other, rather than side by side. FX? Always in the same location, accessible via banks. One touch, and I know exactly what I'm controlling, and what it does. I'll argue to the end that my APC40 setup is fast, intuitive, easy to use because I don't limit myself by Ableton's system AND because I have no need to approach djing rooted in a traditionalist mindset. I need all of those colored buttons to do what I do. Check it:

Traktor + Ableton, both fully functional, synced
4 decks, 4 clip channels
1 step sequencer
live sampling and resequencing
recording everything
no more than a [shift] press to access any function
1 APC40

[mostapha]

Cool.

That works for you. There's no reason you should change the way you work because I think it's badly designed.

I look at that thing, and I see convoluted mappings that I don't want to deal with. I had written it off before I knew what its default mappings were.

In 20 years, I honestly think we're going to look at most of the controllers of today as though they were made in the dark ages. Bomes & m4l are great starts, as is the Jazzmutant stuff…but IMHO, nothing is going to beat physical knobs. And until I see something that makes more sense than an expanded DJ mixer, I'm happy with my toy.

It seems like you're happy with yours. Different strokes.

I should probably say that I'm a very spatial person…if a thing doesn't have a place in space that makes sense, I can't find it. It doesn't matter if it's a file on my hard drive that's somehow sorted wrong in the view I use, a knob or button on a controller, or a bottle of scotch in my bar, if it's not somewhere that makes some weird kind of arbitrary sense to me, I almost have to perform an exhaustive search to find it. It's weird, I know, but that's where my preference comes from.

[Bassline Brine]

The lack of EQ's is what gets me on the APC 40. I realize it works quite well for a lot of folks, but it's the sheer reason why I can't get my head around buying one.

I wish they would come out with an APC 40 XL or some such thing, than literally just had 3 knobs above each of the channels. If they did that, I would say the controller would be complete.

But that, once again, is why it's good to look around. Awesome if you like it though, it seems a solid piece of kit and I have seen people playing out with it.