New controllers, brand

[ToOntown]

No, what I'm asking here is what function did toontown have in mind when he put them there.

If this is a utility controller with no "real" purpose, then that's as good a setup as any other. But this thread is about someone who wants to sell controllers retail. And if the controller doesn't fit some kind of use case, it doesn't have much of a chance of actually selling.

The point of designing an effective controller is to lay it out in such a way that users will see it and immediately know what it's for (even if different people see very different purposes). So let's drill down a bit.

In Live, I see an controller that handles clip triggering and effects. The buttons and knobs are separate from each other, and clip triggering and effects are 2 distinct functions - so that makes sense. But while there are 2 groups of eight buttons, there aren't any buttons associated with those knobs. So as a Live user, I'm either forced to use clip trigger buttons to work effects, or I need to map the effects buttons to another controller. Each solution is awkward, because it screws with your workflow.

The same problem exists for Traktor. I can see me using the button section for either 4 groups of 8 cues (for Deck A-D), or cues and auto loops for 2 decks. But again, the knobs are a problem. There's no clear use for them, because they're missing something. You could attempt to solve this by making them push encoders, but that isn't a satisfying solution for everyone, and they're more expensive. And if I were to use the entire controller to control all 4 effects in Traktor, the association between he effect parameter and the button is harder to make.

You might be thinking "this is crazy - I just want a bunch of knobs and buttons to map how I want.". That's normal, but when it comes to making a buy decision it's not how most people really work. If it was, you'd see everyone using the APC40 mapped into Traktor. The APC40 is a bunch of buttons and knobs, is well built, and has a TON of MIDI feedback. But if you take a look at ANY mapping into Traktor and it's a hot mess. I see people with stickers or tape all over just to tell them where shit is. If any OTHER user came up to that APC40 and it wasn't labeled, they wouldn't know how to make it work without a lot of trial and error.

A good controller layout will be intuitive even if it isn't labeled. You'll be able to look at it and understand what's supposed to be happening. It will IMPLY a workflow.

THAT was the point of asking what the knobs are for.

Well I think it's pretty obvious that rows of knobs/encoders are meant for effect control. And I would disagree about unlabeled controllers still being intuitive. Think about it. If the S4 didn't have a single label on it, we'd all be lost.

As for selling controllers retail... no offense but I think they're dreaming. If it were that easy, Livid Instruments and Midi Fighters would be sold at Guitar Center. Not even DJ-Tech products are sold retail and they've been one of the fastest growing manufacturers out there. Unless you sell your product idea to Akai, M-audio, or Native Instruments, I think it's a waste of time trying to corner the masses. Web sales is pretty much the only way to achieve success with this type of product.

The OP seems to want a cross-platform controller and I think this type of design meets that criteria. Out of the box mappings can be made for all major DJ programs and there can be overlays shipped with the device or ordered from the web. DJTT does it with their VCI-100s. I'd venture to say that about 95% of the Midi Fighters were bought because of the deckalized or IG mappings (and have never been re-mapped).

So my point is, I agree with your use cases theory but I don't think it's as big of a hurdle as you make it out to be.

[MrPopinjay]

If the S4 didn't have a single label on it, we'd all be lost.

You're kidding, right? Other than shift/cue/play etc I don't see anyone mixing up any of the controls there.

[ToOntown]

You're kidding, right? Other than shift/cue/play etc I don't see anyone mixing up any of the controls there.

Strawman argument.

No of course I'm not kidding. You're giving novice DJs a bit too much credit here, mate. This wasn't the point of my post anyway, was it?

[MrPopinjay]

Fair enough. Personally I really dislike controllers with loads of labels on them. A button with loop written on it would annoy the hell out of me if I remapped it to a delay or something.

Hooray for the xone 1d, korg nanokontrol, akai lpd8 and other such blank controllers!

[ToOntown]

Fair enough. Personally I really dislike controllers with loads of labels on them. A button with loop written on it would annoy the hell out of me if I remapped it to a delay or something.

Hooray for the xone 1d, korg nanokontrol, akai lpd8 and other such blank controllers!

I agree completely. That's why I love the MidiFighter.

But by the same token I agree with the idea of use cases out of the box. There's more of a consumer reach there. And if an overlay can be applied, you have yourself a versatile controller that can be used in different instances depending on the mapping.

ExtraClassic's keyboard mod comes to mind. One controller, several overlays to be used across multiple platforms. Although I would prefer if it were an overlay more in the sense of the DJTT VCI-100SE where the holes are cutout rather than the ones where the entire surface is covered.

[BURST!]

In your OP, you said you wanted to make a controller that for effects and loops. Well I'm currently looking for a controller to control the sample decks in traktor, so I had a bit of fun.



The idea is to have something that can be used along side a VCI-100 or an S4, and give you complete control over the sample decks. Although I have never used ableton, from what I've read in this thread, I think this kind of layout would also appeal to ableton users.

Just some food for thought.

[GeekGod]

+1 on LED rings. That really is the only thing I dislike about the S4.

[MrPopinjay]

It needs some buttons switching pages on the encoders. Also give us 3 rows so they can be for EQs as well!

Problem with LED rings around encoders is that you need a program or some firmware between traktor and the midi device that converts the encoders into fake pots with a position. Then they send this data both back to the controller to control the LEDs and to the DJ software. Generally these programs are a but of a pain in the arse or they are like the APC40, MPD26 etc and prevent you from using them as normal encoders which sucks.

[nem0nic]

Well I think it's pretty obvious that rows of knobs/encoders are meant for effect control.

Right. I agree completely. So where are the required buttons for effect control? Are they the buttons below the knobs? If so, why disassociate the 2 groups? That makes the controller less intuitive.

And I would disagree about unlabeled controllers still being intuitive.

There are functional groups that imply a workflow. For example, if I have a fader and 3 unlabeled pots above it, are you really saying that most users won't decide to map those pots to EQs HI/MID/LOW top to bottom? How about if there is a linear fader next to a platter. If the fader isn't labeled PITCH, do you really think any user will be confused about it's implied functionality? Think they'll try mapping that big platter to the volume?

Probably not. We work with these functional groups every day. There are unwritten rules for product design that apply to ALL classes of product. Good design means that the product should be intuitive.

If it were that easy, Livid Instruments and Midi Fighters would be sold at Guitar Center.

I'm not saying it's easy. Quite the opposite. And if you start off with bad design, your job is that much harder.

Not even DJ-Tech products are sold retail and they've been one of the fastest growing manufacturers out there.

You have no idea what you're talking about here. First of all, they're not a manufacturer. They rebadge stuff from ODMs (mostly Hanpin) and sell it. Second of all, they're not fast growing (mostly because their distribution model is terrible).

Web sales is pretty much the only way to achieve success with this type of product.

Even if that's the intended goal, good design is a must or your sales will be severely limited.

Out of the box mappings can be made for all major DJ programs and there can be overlays shipped with the device or ordered from the web.

But again, the problem isn't that the functions aren't known. It's a matter of workflow. If I have to spread a functional group out, that breaks up the workflow and makes things harder to use. Most of the time, this isn't even something you think about directly - you just realize that using thing X is uncomfortable or distracting. When you experience this, most of the time it can be attributed to a design flaw.

DJTT does it with their VCI-100s

DJTT doesn't make VCI-100s.

I'd venture to say that about 95% of the Midi Fighters were bought because of the deckalized or IG mappings (and have never been re-mapped).

And the MIDI Fighter has a very clear and proven workflow. A 4 x 4 grid of buttons used to "perform" sounds has been used since 1988 (where it appeared on the original MPC60).

[nem0nic]

Problem with LED rings around encoders is that you need a program or some firmware between traktor and the midi device that converts the encoders into fake pots with a position.

No, you don't. The APC40 uses encoders with LED rings just fine and needs no middleware. The encoders on the APC40 just send an absolute message instead of relative. This is easily done in the device firmware. If you wanted to be especially crafty, you could put in a SYSEX message or "magic keypress" to switch the encoder behavior over from absolute to relative.