WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

[oliosky]

Why is optimization insanity? Seems fairly intelligent to me.

[Saurus]

Why is optimization insanity? Seems fairly intelligent to me.

you don't have to optimize your computer to use any controller that uses midi... And midi is better than HID for most cases.

(to skip the obvious argument from someone who doesn't know this: 14-bit midi has 16,000 ticks, is inherently faster than HID, and requires no special drivers of any kind.)

[oliosky]

you don't have to optimize your computer to use any controller that uses midi... And midi is better than HID for most cases.

(to skip the obvious argument from someone who doesn't know this: 14-bit midi has 16,000 ticks, is inherently faster than HID, and requires no special drivers of any kind.)

Please back this statement up further. Because from what I understand (and I'm no expert on this shit) audio PC optimization doesn't just apply to midi/HID but to things like overall USB performance, ACPI managment and soundcard performance etc.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but much of the issues PC folks are having with clicks and pops has nothing to do with HID vs Midi.

Regardless, why is it a problem to optimize anyway? Its take zero time and gets rid of the issues. Not insanity, more logic and common sense.

[MrPopinjay]

This sounds like a misunderstanding to me- I don't think anyone here is trying to imply you need a special optimisation process to use midi or NI's HID controllers.

Personally I'd rather see midi used over proprietary HID stuff- drivers are far from fun! And, like Saurus here, I don't buy into the argument that 14-bit midi isn't precise enough. Midi is more widely supported by software at the moment so I'd much rather see controllers go down that route, though with the S2 and S4 their only real advantages are the bundled traktor licence and the 1 to 1 intergration so it probably doesn't matter that much there. If you didn't want to use traktor you could probably find a better controller for your money.

[MrPopinjay]

Thats what updating your drivers are for

Not sure I follow, the updates break it so you're encouraging people to update? Wouldn't requiring no driver what so ever be preferable?

[Saurus]

This sounds like a misunderstanding to me- I don't think anyone here is trying to imply you need a special optimisation process to use midi or NI's HID controllers.

Ah, I spose you're right. I was assuming he meant optimize your computer specifically for the S4. Optimizing your computer for traktor in general doesn't help the problem in any way, it'll just cut down on audio latency.

Please back this statement up further. Because from what I understand (and I'm no expert on this shit) audio PC optimization doesn't just apply to midi/HID but to things like overall USB performance, ACPI managment and soundcard performance etc.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but much of the issues PC folks are having with clicks and pops has nothing to do with HID vs Midi.

Regardless, why is it a problem to optimize anyway? Its take zero time and gets rid of the issues. Not insanity, more logic and common sense.

Yeah i get what you mean... But that's not a problem that I'm talking about. NI's proprietary system includes both its control messages, and its sound card, and every update that NI releases breaks at LEAST one of them. So it's not SPECIFICALLY hid vs midi, I'm talking about NI's proprietary system Vs midi, and it happens to use HID.

If you do the research... really, popinjay and I are right on this one, midi is miles beyond HID. The only reason HID is used is to have an excuse to implement proprietary systems. Everything done between the S2/S4 and traktor could have been done with 14-bit midi better and more easily for NI.

[Shishdisma]

If you do the research... really, popinjay and I are right on this one, midi is miles beyond HID. The only reason HID is used is to have an excuse to implement proprietary systems. Everything done between the S2/S4 and traktor could have been done with 14-bit midi better and more easily for NI.

And once again, you've shown you really kind of don't know what you're talking about. MIDI is an archaic protocol for a box of knobs sending button presses and receiving LED feedback. HID is a fully integrated solution for hardware and software interfacing to a purpose. If you honestly think mapping and configuring a MIDI knob box is superior to plugging in a CDJ and being able to get full hardware integration, I seriously doubt you actually use DJ hardware for any meaningful purpose.

MIDI in DJing is a hobbyist waste of time, a bridge to newbies, or a stopgap to a better integrated solution. No actual professional DJ or club would waste a second of their time mapping a controller when an integrated or standalone solution was in reach. Only performance artists and producers looking to create a workflow, hurdles aside. There's a reason CDJs are the industry standard, and CDJs interface with software via..... HID!

[MrPopinjay]

Nonsense. Midi is a perfectly good protocol. Not that it matters what you're stating as the advantages of HID has nothing to do with HID or midi itself. You can get complete plug and play hardware software integration with any protocol you please. There are lots of HID devices you have to map and there are lots of midi devices that you do not. You are completely failing to understand the difference between the two (which is largely the fault of traktor's lack of HID mapping making everyone assume mappings have to be a midi thing)

Besides, don't the CDJ2000s transmit both a HID protocol and midi?

[squidot]

well, i was on the fence between a vci-400 ege and s4 a little bit ago and ultimately chose the vci for a couple of reasons. i will say that the s4 does have some positive aspects and i can see why people end up getting them and liking them. i looked at a few other all-in-ones but these 2 were the mains i seriously considered.

first, i would say that the actual layout and configuration is really good. i think better than any other all in one controller i wanted to get. particularly the position of the jog wheels, buttons and tempo faders.

second, the price. right now it's $800 but most big sites and chains almost always have a 15% off sale going on which brings the price to $680 with free shipping. plus it comes with the traktor software which will save people $90 if they don't already have it and want another controller. if you're looking at the vci-400 ege that's almost $1,100, though i got mine on sale for $950 with a free mono bad and i already had tsp 2.5. i could have gotten the s4, a mf3d and bag for about the same price. the ege is nearly twice the price of the s4 (with 15% off) when you factor in the sofware.

third, the jog wheels. if you are interested in learning how to get the fundamentals of scratching down on a controller this is probably the way to go and they will work pretty well out of the box for this. i'm not one on doing this kind of thing but i can see the appeal it has to some people. it would be a good way to get your feet wet and decide if you want to move up to turntables.

honestly, the build quality doesn't seem all that bad to me, especially for under $700. i don't think it's as good as the vci controllers but i don't think it's awful either and with a $400 difference (including software) it seems like it would be worth it for most people. now you could get a deal on a regular vci-400 for $850 with the same discount, but from what i read it's not as easy to use with traktor as the ege due to the custom firmware. even the regular edition vci is still $300 more if you have to get the software.

any hardware isn't without it's downfalls, but that's just the game. it's matter of balance on what you want to do and how much you want to spend to do it, while sacrificing other things. i understand you had a rough time with yours and i always see you trying to talk people out of getting one, but honestly the s4 seems like a pretty good piece of kit considering everything and i can definitely see why people like them.

[Shishdisma]

Nonsense. Midi is a perfectly good protocol. Not that it matters what you're stating as the advantages of HID has nothing to do with HID or midi itself. You can get complete plug and play hardware software integration with any protocol you please. There are lots of HID devices you have to map and there are lots of midi devices that you do not. You are completely failing to understand the difference between the two (which is largely the fault of traktor's lack of HID mapping making everyone assume mappings have to be a midi thing)

Besides, don't the CDJ2000s transmit both a HID protocol and midi?

HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers, or CDJs. I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function. Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work. You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights. There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production equipment.

Not to any meaningful degree. You COULD spend an hour mapping out every function on a CDJ, and then have the screen be completely dead. Or you could plug it in with AHID and have it start working, like completely, like right away.