Why Pioneer before Allen & Heath?

[frankle]

I'm not going to do this cause I think my DJM900 sounds thumping... but would wiring a Xone 22 in between the DJM and the speakers simply add the analogue warmth to the sound ?

Ultimately the DJM 900 is a giant 96kHz/24-bit soundcard so it'd be like running an Audio 10 through a Xone no?

In theory getting the the DJM900 effects and functionality combined with Xone "warmth"

Is this the best of both worlds?

I use my Xone 464 side of stage to plug various mixers, controllers, whatever turns up on the festival event together and allow me to mix and distribute audio to my Nexo system. I can say that yes, it does give the Pioneer mixers some warmth, but my 464 is one of the very first made with master "faders" and has a very unique sound, very much warmer than even my 92! It also allows me to mix 4 mic's and foldback for singers or percussionists, and have seamless changeovers with 4 sets of balanced ins allowing for 2 mixers FoH and booth to be plugged in at once ... And let me bus both booth signals to a common set of booth monitors from both mixers. Enough about my favourite mixer, back on topic!

So in short dropping a Xone 22 in might make a slight difference, but if you can find something like an original 62 (again with a master "fader" instead of a master "knob") then you will find what you're after.

Regarding the whole A&H vs Pio thing, when I have the whole night to myself and take a console then it's my 92, if I'm playing with others or supplying gear for an event then 9 times out of 10 it's my 850/900 mixer. If I'm playing in clubs then it's normally an 850/900.

As much as I'm a massive A&H fan, the driver issues with the DB series have certainly let them down. Such a shame because these mixers I put ahead of the 850/900 in terms of sound quality, but if it's going to have issues dropping audio and glitchy pauses then it's not worth the risk of using them live. The 850/900 both have rock solid drivers and so my preference is these over the DB2&4.

My preference over the 850/900 is my 92, but only when I have the time to setup external soundcard (TA10 or Fireface UC), it sounds so much better!

[FilthyDave]

Shishdisma Any piece of audio equipment like a mixer or amp should faithfully reproduce the input signal but just add some gain. However in the real world this is practically impossible to do as every component in the signal path will add artifacts to it. It is the summation of all those artifacts that gives each piece of equipment its characteristic sound

When talking about the differences between analogue and digital however we are normally talking about the differences in sound when the equipment is being overdriven to the point of distortion.

Analogue 'warmth' is just harmonic distortion. The signal is no longer a faithful reproduction. However because analogue distortion tends to be Odd order harmonics and digital distortion Even order harmonics we hear a difference in the sound

For some reason the ear/brain combination interprets Odd orders as being warm & fuzzy and Even orders cold & clinical.


I have my personal preference on A&H vs Pioneer based on years of pro sound engineering experience but as has been said before go demo them side by side and judge for yourself.

Preferably using source material like Steely Dan as it was recorded and produced by fastidious engineers in the days before digital studios and over compression ruined everything...

[makar1]

When talking about the differences between analogue and digital however we are normally talking about the differences in sound when the equipment is being overdriven to the point of distortion.

Mixers should never be anywhere near the point of distortion, whether they are analogue or digital. DJ mixers are typically very hard to distort for this very reason.

[FilthyDave]

Mixers should never be anywhere near the point of distortion, whether they are analogue or digital.

Correct

DJ mixers are typically very hard to distort for this very reason.

Not always true: http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/support/sof...0NXS/page.html (an emergency update adding a peak limiter to prevent digital distortion)

See 'note 1' on this information sheet regarding it http://www.pioneer.eu/files/support/...M-900NXS_E.pdf

[makar1]

Not always true: http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/support/sof...0NXS/page.html (an emergency update adding a peak limiter to prevent digital distortion)

See 'note 1' on this information sheet regarding it http://www.pioneer.eu/files/support/...M-900NXS_E.pdf

How exactly does the existence of a limiter mean a mixer is easy to distort? Did you know that the DJM 900 has 19dB of headroom above the 0dB VU point?

Even if you're hitting the reds, you won't actually be distorting unless the reds light up between transients.

[FilthyDave]

To quote the info sheet from Pioneer themselves:

"When the Peak Limiter is enabled, you will be able to alleviate sudden, unpleasant digital clipping of the master output."

[makar1]

The fact that there is a limiter built in does not mean the mixer is any easier to distort. Surely it means the exact opposite.

[FilthyDave]

Once the firmware update is applied that is correct but that limiter wasn't available until the 21st October this year and not everyone will have updated it yet.
I'm just illustrating the fact that a 19dB headroom doesn't mean it is impossible to distort. It just means there is more room for manoeuvre before it does.

Unfortunately instead of beating DJ's round the head for hitting red lights companies have built in more headroom. This just means the lights are no longer a reliable indicator of what is actually happening to the signal and they are taught to largely ignore them. The consequence of that is they think they can run a mixer ragged with no ill effect.

I'm actually borrowing a 900 Nexus this weekend to run some tests on it due to a dryhire gig managing to blow 4 sub drivers two weeks in a row. Unfortunately as it was a dryhire I wasn't there to witness it happen but the only common factor to both events was their 900 (which we'd previously applied the -6dB attenuator to)

It's my plan to burn a 1kHz sine wave to a CD at 0dB Full Scale and get my scope on it to see exactly what is happening. I'll post a video if anything interesting occurs.

[Shishdisma]

Once the firmware update is applied that is correct but that limiter wasn't available until the 21st October this year and not everyone will have updated it yet.
I'm just illustrating the fact that a 19dB headroom doesn't mean it is impossible to distort. It just means there is more room for manoeuvre before it does.

Unfortunately instead of beating DJ's round the head for hitting red lights companies have built in more headroom. This just means the lights are no longer a reliable indicator of what is actually happening to the signal and they are taught to largely ignore them. The consequence of that is they think they can run a mixer ragged with no ill effect.

I'm actually borrowing a 900 Nexus this weekend to run some tests on it due to a dryhire gig managing to blow 4 sub drivers two weeks in a row. Unfortunately as it was a dryhire I wasn't there to witness it happen but the only common factor to both events was their 900 (which we'd previously applied the -6dB attenuator to)

It's my plan to burn a 1kHz sine wave to a CD at 0dB Full Scale and get my scope on it to see exactly what is happening. I'll post a video if anything interesting occurs.

Running my 2000 from balanced across the board at 10 into the limiter requires the master knob to go from ~2o'clock to completely maxed out, and the channel trim to be boosted irresponsibly off the meters as well. Its definitely "possible" to clip the thing, theres obviously a limit, but you would have to be consciously trying to belt as much volume as physically possible to do so. There's "boosting off the meters" and then theres "boosting off the meters, and boosting, and boosting, and boosting." I've only ever seen one hit the top once, and never by accident or incompetence.

Im going to give you a prediction of what I think happened to your sub cones. They ran the output too hot and weren't paying attention to the patch/amp input, and the drivers threw from the patch/amps overloading. -6db isn't going to save you from throwing a driver from running the gain chain too hot.

Just tonight, I ran my 2000 balanced at 10, and the patch channel volume pot (fader) had to be ran around 8-8:30 just to keep a steady signal below the patch mixer's limit, with my 2000's master running around 2o'clock (the bottom half of the guide bracket). If I had ramped up the volume even to the other half of the guide bracket, the patch would have clipped, and probably wouldn't have had the wiggle room in the faders to even support such a powerful output signal. You have to try to get a DJM to square off, bargain bin patch setups and touchy amp inputs, not so much.

[FilthyDave]

Almost certainly agree with your summation Shishdisma that it most likely overloaded the input stage of my processor although I would like to add that an XTA 448 processor and an MC2 E45 amp is not a bargain bin setup :-)