Powering a rave in a field ?

**manchild** · 07-31-2012, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by rotebass

, some welding units, and older appliances use three conductors (hot, neutral and earth) which is illegal for entertainment usage.

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A little off topic, and not sure if you care or not, but just an FYI, in the US, a 240V welder is (Hot, Hot, Ground) and older style plugs for appliances would technically be (Hot, Hot, Ground/Neutral). If you get a 240v only genny in the future, there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral, in the code for generators you open up a can of worms as soon if you are not cord and plug connecting stuff, but just throwing some useless knowledge out there in case you are one of those that care about knowing about stuff like that.

**rotebass** · 08-01-2012, 07:33 AM

Originally Posted by manchild

there is 120v there, you just need to tap off the ground lug to get your neutral

Illegal.

**manchild** · 08-01-2012, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by rotebass

Illegal.

Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about.

**rotebass** · 08-02-2012, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by manchild

Says the guy that gave out wrong information in the first place on the subject. Hate to break it to you, but ground and neutral tap are the same tap in this situation. There are just other things by code you must do if your loads arent cord and plug connected (IE setting up suplemental ground rods), but I guess I have no clue what I am talking about.

That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this.

**manchild** · 08-02-2012, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by rotebass

That's an mature response. Earth and neutral are NOT interchangeable for entertainment usage. Say what you want, but I've seen inspectors ream guys out - and stop shows - for this.

This has nothing to do w/ not running a seperate Neutral. I'm talking about the tap. The tap is the same. You would still need to run a seperate neutral along w/ a ground (just in case you care, "Earth" is entirely the wrong term). Basically you would run a neutral (grounded conducter proper term but no one calls it that) and a ground (grounding conductor is the proper term, but again no one calls it that) , and they both would be connected to the same tap off the generator. Also (again, in case you care), I think the code article you are reffering to has less to do with the fact that it is for entertainment, and more to do with the fact that the only time you can use a wire as both a ground and neutral is if it's an older appliance that was listed for this use (grandfathered in), also the conductor has to have insulation and cant be bare, and the Panel (generator in this example) you are connecting the load to also has to be the point where the ground and neutral are bonded (system bonding jumper). The ground/neutral tap on the generator would be your system bonding jumper, and thus you could by code connect a 3 wire oven, dryer, etc. There are no other instances where you could do this. If you're taking that 4 wire feed , that has the neutral/ground tapped off the same tap on the generator, and then setting up your own panel to tap all your loads off of, then at that panel you need to isolate the ground and neutral at all times. Basically, anything after the system bonding jumper, ground and neutral must be isolated. This rule applies for anything, wether it's Industrial, commercial, residential, or even generators

**Da3dalus** · 08-02-2012, 07:16 PM

Im kind of confused about the terms you use such as tap and hot.

If you could explain?

Also I went to a tool hire and they set me up with a 10kva genny so that should do the trick

I also asked if it needed to be grounded and he said no.

Do gennys work differently in America because of the voltage that they have to be grounded?

**manchild** · 08-02-2012, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by Da3dalus

Im kind of confused about the terms you use such as tap and hot.

If you could explain?

Also I went to a tool hire and they set me up with a 10kva genny so that should do the trick

I also asked if it needed to be grounded and he said no.

Do gennys work differently in America because of the voltage that they have to be grounded?

I wouldnt worry too much about it. I'm guessing that some of the stuff I mentioned a lot of experienced electricians wouldnt know. If you're still interested, I can try to explain it, but it's def not something you'll need to know for you're gig.

As for your grounding question, I don't know any code from your area, but I do know theory, and obviously electrical theory holds true no matter the area you live in. So I wouldnt know any additional requirements they might have in your area. In the US, the only time they require you to do anything w/ grounding of a generator, is when the stuff you are connecting to the generator aren't cord and plug ( Basically your not plugging your equipment into the generator with a cord or you're plugging into the generator with a cord but you put in a distribution box and powering your equipment off that), or if you have a gas tank that isnt plastic or if it's metal it isnt bonded (grounded). They would then make you drive a ground rod into the earth, and this basically makes the earth a big conductor back to the source. Connecting to the Earth doesnt make it a "better" ground, it's simply just a path for short circuit voltage to travel back to the source. Contrary to popular belief, electricity doesnt want to just travel into the earth, it wants to get back to the source (generator). So if you didnt have any ground rods in the earth or if the earth wasn't somehow bonded to the generators magnetic coils, then electricity wouldnt flow thru the earth. Basically what I'm saying is, when you get that 10KVa generator, if the legs of it were plastic or they are isolated from the earth, you could plug a cord into it, strip the end of that cord so that the individual conductors are showing, take the live wire (hot) and stuff it right into the dirt beneath you, and nothing would happen since the current has no way of getting back to the source.