At A New Gear Crossroad... What Set Up To Choose??

[fullenglishpint]

If you're playing music off your computer, it's just "closer" to the original recording for starters. An external mixer is adding a layer is all. That layer can add qualities but that does not make it "better" quality.

Yes, exactly what I meant by my slightly clumsy vinyl analogy. Vinyl sounds different, maybe a little warmer, definitely a little more crackly, but not better.

External mixing is similar. You could emulate those sounds with software if you wanted to anyway... like the traktor P600 emulation!

[MaxOne]

tbh i do think vinyl "sounds" better. Not just the crackles but definitely the warmth.

But punters can hardly tell the difference and it's a small compromise for the advantages of digital djing.

They need to sort out an amazing vinyl filter you can wack on the master out in traktor

[MaxOne]

Hmmm, i don't use pro tools but wonder what this is like?

http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/vinyl/

[MaxOne]

Just downloaded it a tried it with logic, just adds crackles, dust etc.

Pretty cool but doesn't add warmth

[V-Hoff]

Also don't thing anyone should think they need to go external to be more "professional" etc. I get that people have their reasons though so am not knocking it.

Remember this blog post though?

http://www.djtechtools.com/2009/12/0...ich-is-better/

My reason to go to external is not audio quality, not even the "professional" looking of it. I have the same opinion as you in this matter, people are just lame to say that internal mixing isn't a professional way to DJ.

Edit: Had to say that I mention this article to every friend that has doubts about external/internal. It's a perfect technical article to me

My reason to go to external is booth space and bag weight. To be more clear:

• Most of the clubs alredy have a 4 channel mixer, as I still mix with two channels, will be easy to setup.
• I will go to the iPAD route to controll all traktor commands (transport, FX, Filter, Looping, Beat Jump, Gridding, Pitch, etc), but I don't feel that an iPAD will give the same feel as a mixer does when it comes to basic mixer controls (EQ, Faders, Crossfader, Gain).
• As I mention above I still need the tactile feel of a mixer to EQ, faders and Xfaders
• I don't like jogwheels, they are big, generally expensive and heavy, I don't need them to mix now (I have two korg nanos and a maudio oxygen 25keys) and I will not need them later with an iPAD

In conclusion, why I would need an all in one controller, with the mixer part in it if all the clubs alredy have a mixer?

I prefer to have two iPADs, one on top of each CDJs to emulate the traktor commands and the mixer part on the middle with full tactile feel

I would add a Midi Fighter latter for tactile cue playing but I don't feel that I will juggle that much with Psytrance. I still thinking if I need one...

At home I would have the simpliest 4 channel mixer, I will not use any effetcs, just the EQs, Volume Faders and Cross Fader (I don't use that much, though)

[Dustin V]

Wow, thanks for all your replies and feedback guys, even though the chat did move slightly off topic.

So far I'm leaning towards the S4, DJTT has a sweet deal on at the moment with the S4 + TMA combo deal, and I think I might look into that.

I already have TSP so maybe later on I can add an X1 when I get more cash from gigging. The main thing is moving on from the RMX. I've mapped it perfectly to my Traktor but I find myself seriously limited these days and I really need something more advanced and of better quality.

One thing that I'm curious about, what would probably happen for us 1.2.7 TSP users when the new software is released? Will the new software come as a paid update or hopefully free? How would the X1 work out with the new software? Thanks.

[padi_04]

The main thing is moving on from the RMX. I've mapped it perfectly to my Traktor but I find myself seriously limited these days and I really need something more advanced and of better quality.

One thing that I'm curious about, what would probably happen for us 1.2.7 TSP users when the new software is released? Will the new software come as a paid update or hopefully free? How would the X1 work out with the new software? Thanks.

Same happened here with a BCD and there started my gearwhoring . no one knows yet if it will be a free or paid upgrade yet, but i'm leaning towards the 2º option. the X1 comes with a handy alternative TSI with TPS4 and I'm sure that will be included in the new software, or you could just remap it in any way you like

[exokinetic]

LoL.

I never said, or even implied it was unprofessional.

I said FOR ME it isnt the way to go.

I didnt tell anyone else that what they were doing was wrong.

In my opinion I would rather have the two channels mixed together outside of the computing environment entirely. You can tell me all you want about the fact that you cant hear the difference. But the fact is plain and simple, internally your computers processor, by way of Traktors clock cycles, is doing all of you mixing and EQing. This is on top of everything else: track loading, pitch and key transporting, effecting etc.


Taking something off that chain, and moving it to a device that has a "known good" sound quality to it has to be an advantage if you have the cash/space/knowhow/capability to do so.

Using a djm600 as a comparison actually doesnt work in my case, as I am talking about ANALOGUE mixers.

Think of this:

MP3/WAVE/AAC Track(Digital) ->- (mixed or unmixed) the digital signal hits your audio interface (in my case Audio8). Inside of your audio interface the digital signal is converted to analogue (i.e. the AD/DA converter) ->- (mixed or unmixed) this signal then hits one of two things:

A. If you go direct from your sound card to powered monitors, your sound card is sending an analogue signal to analogue monitor amplifiers. And this is a preferred situation. The S4 gets grouped in this case, as it is just a control surface, controlling the mixing witch is happening on your computer CPU. And thusly the S4 sound card converts the signal to analogue on its output through the Cirrus Logic AD/DA converters NI uses.

B. If (in my case) you go into a "mixer" before your monitoring solution it does one of two things.

b1. If you have a DIGITAL mixer (i.e. DJM600) the ANALOGUE signal from you audio interface is converted to digital to be mixed in the mixers digital mixing interface (not my proffered option). It is then convereted once more to analogue on the mixers main out bus. This analogue signal then hits your monitoring solution.

That means in this situation the signal gets converted from digital, to analogue, back to digital, then back to analogue once more. WTF.

OF COURSE it sounded better when you took the DJM600 out of the chain. Ill wager the interal DIGITAL mixer inside Traktor has a better algorithm than the DIGITAL mixer inside your djm, or ANY DJM for that matter!

b2. If you have an ANALOGUE mixer (i.e. A&H Xone:92) the ANALOGUE signal from your audio interface is mixed NATIVELY as an analogue signal by the legendary A&H circuitry. It them exits the mixer just as it entered, in an analogue state, to be amplified by analogue monitoring solution.


Im not trying to tell anyone that mixing internally is nonprofessional, or that it is somehow "faking". Everyone who actually knows what I'm talking about in this thread even conceded that it is theoretically better. Weather or not you PA system is a quality bottleneck is one thing, weather or not you use straight vinyl, or cd compression quality, or high quality mp3's, or I could give a shit quality mp3's is another thing.

And weather or not the crowd that is coming to see you EVEN CARES is a MUCH BIGGER THING in many people eyes....


I play at a lot of hippie type psychedelic progressive minimal techno(yes thats one genre) parties. And most of the time, if its not a Funktion One system, or at least Turbo Sound, its highly scoffed at. Its meant to be a spiritual event, and if the music is not reproduced faithfully to the artists intent you loose that connection.


AGAIN, this is all just MY OPINION, for MY SITUATION.

Let the flames ensue.


....AND if the VINYL your listening to is POPPING and CRACKING then the needle is dirty, the catridge/stylus combo aint up to snuff for "HI-FI", your vinyl is DEGRADING and should be replaced, or the amplifier driving the signal is not being driven loud enough to overcome its signal to noise ratio.

I have listened to many full sets on vinyl that are absolutely clean, with drops to full silence in tracks. Its just takes a LOT more work as far as maintenance, specific equipment, and care. IMHO for ME its not worth that effort. Im not there yet entirely, but in MY humbly perfect world, my entire collection would be full WAV compression, my cdj will play the tracks in that collection the same way, with same quality every time, thousands of times over, and I would always play through a beautifully warm analogue mixer into a Funktion One PA system....

If your still reading this you should go do something else.... like you could probably use some sunlight right about now.

[MaxOne]

LoL.

I never said, or even implied it was unprofessional.

I said FOR ME it isnt the way to go.

I didnt tell anyone else that what they were doing was wrong.

In my opinion I would rather have the two channels mixed together outside of the computing environment entirely. You can tell me all you want about the fact that you cant hear the difference. But the fact is plain and simple, internally your computers processor, by way of Traktors clock cycles, is doing all of you mixing and EQing. This is on top of everything else: track loading, pitch and key transporting, effecting etc.


Taking something off that chain, and moving it to a device that has a "known good" sound quality to it has to be an advantage if you have the cash/space/knowhow/capability to do so.

Using a djm600 as a comparison actually doesnt work in my case, as I am talking about ANALOGUE mixers.

Think of this:

MP3/WAVE/AAC Track(Digital) ->- (mixed or unmixed) the digital signal hits your audio interface (in my case Audio8). Inside of your audio interface the digital signal is converted to analogue (i.e. the AD/DA converter) ->- (mixed or unmixed) this signal then hits one of two things:

A. If you go direct from your sound card to powered monitors, your sound card is sending an analogue signal to analogue monitor amplifiers. And this is a preferred situation. The S4 gets grouped in this case, as it is just a control surface, controlling the mixing witch is happening on your computer CPU. And thusly the S4 sound card converts the signal to analogue on its output through the Cirrus Logic AD/DA converters NI uses.

B. If (in my case) you go into a "mixer" before your monitoring solution it does one of two things.

b1. If you have a DIGITAL mixer (i.e. DJM600) the ANALOGUE signal from you audio interface is converted to digital to be mixed in the mixers digital mixing interface (not my proffered option). It is then convereted once more to analogue on the mixers main out bus. This analogue signal then hits your monitoring solution.

That means in this situation the signal gets converted from digital, to analogue, back to digital, then back to analogue once more. WTF.

OF COURSE it sounded better when you took the DJM600 out of the chain. Ill wager the interal DIGITAL mixer inside Traktor has a better algorithm than the DIGITAL mixer inside your djm, or ANY DJM for that matter!

b2. If you have an ANALOGUE mixer (i.e. A&H Xone:92) the ANALOGUE signal from your audio interface is mixed NATIVELY as an analogue signal by the legendary A&H circuitry. It them exits the mixer just as it entered, in an analogue state, to be amplified by analogue monitoring solution.


Im not trying to tell anyone that mixing internally is nonprofessional, or that it is somehow "faking". Everyone who actually knows what I'm talking about in this thread even conceded that it is theoretically better. Weather or not you PA system is a quality bottleneck is one thing, weather or not you use straight vinyl, or cd compression quality, or high quality mp3's, or I could give a shit quality mp3's is another thing.

And weather or not the crowd that is coming to see you EVEN CARES is a MUCH BIGGER THING in many people eyes....


I play at a lot of hippie type psychedelic progressive minimal techno(yes thats one genre) parties. And most of the time, if its not a Funktion One system, or at least Turbo Sound, its highly scoffed at. Its meant to be a spiritual event, and if the music is not reproduced faithfully to the artists intent you loose that connection.


AGAIN, this is all just MY OPINION, for MY SITUATION.

Let the flames ensue.


....AND if the VINYL your listening to is POPPING and CRACKING then the needle is dirty, the catridge/stylus combo aint up to snuff for "HI-FI", your vinyl is DEGRADING and should be replaced, or the amplifier driving the signal is not being driven loud enough to overcome its signal to noise ratio.

I have listened to many full sets on vinyl that are absolutely clean, with drops to full silence in tracks. Its just takes a LOT more work as far as maintenance, specific equipment, and care. IMHO for ME its not worth that effort. Im not there yet entirely, but in MY humbly perfect world, my entire collection would be full WAV compression, my cdj will play the tracks in that collection the same way, with same quality every time, thousands of times over, and I would always play through a beautifully warm analogue mixer into a Funktion One PA system....

If your still reading this you should go do something else.... like you could probably use some sunlight right about now.

Lol. I read it all (clearly need to get out more)

Couple of points, the Pioneer DJM600 isn't a digital mixer, it's analogue

http://www.pioneer.eu/uk/products/ar...600/index.html

Not really 100% sure i agree about "taking the strain" off my computer's processing. CPU meter on my MBP hardly flickers.

It's only audio processing, not video even. Secretly not that CPU / RAM intensive. We're talking about volume and EQ and FX.

These songs are made on computers with up to 64 tracks all layered with FX and eq. The same computers can handle that, they can handle playing a couple of songs at the same time.

I'm not debating mixer qualities. If I play on CDJs or Vinyl I want it to go through the best, warmest mixer money can buy. Especially if it's going to a function one sound system

If music is coming straight out my computer i want it to take the shortest cut to my output. There can be no argument that adding a mixer into the equation adds another layer and "colour". How could it not?

That's all i'm saying.

Totally hear your words though man.

Respect

[3heads]

If music is coming straight out my computer i want it to take the shortest cut to my output. There can be no argument that adding a mixer into the equation adds another layer and "colour". How could it not?

Sure, it adds "colour", but is that necessarily a bad thing? I for one prefer the sound going through my Xone:42 to the sound when I connect my HS80-M directly to my Audio8. Might just be me though.

External mixing also has a couple other traits I prefer, like zero-latency, VU meters and a good bit of analogue headroom. Also, the option to add something like a groovebox to the setup without having to go through AD conversion (and subsequently again DA conversion) has its merits

And in general, I don't really get the concept of all-in-one-controllers, but that's definitely just a matter of personal preference.