Midi controller jogs

[RobotNinja]

Scraching the only thing that comes close (from what I've heard) is the NS7. Really though, if you're scratching it's DVS or bust.

Ahem....


The S4 is perfectly capable of scratching, however it is INCREDIBLY difficult to do so especially when your used to years of using a motorized spinning platter. No visual cues on your platter, so you have to watch the waveforms on your laptop.

[padi_04]

I did a bit of digging, you are probably correct about the jog resolution, I could only find information for the Gemini Cntrl-7 it is a HID controller that only uses a weird number of 138 clicks per revolution (not 128).

That's regular MIDI with some strong coffee in it

[zestoi]

The S4's native protocol, the T1's midi - thus the S4 has higher resolution on the jog wheels and higher resolution = more accurate. How useful you may find that is debatable, but facts are facts.

being MIDI or HID has nothing to do with "higher resolution". the resolution of any jogs is purely down to the hardware and how many "ticks" are sent out per revolution. in the case of MIDI a tick results in an actual relative midi CC being send out and in the case of HID it results in the controller indicating that *something* has changed which then causes the software to request full status bytes (ish) for the entire controller.

if a controller seems to have a different latency between running in MIDI verses HID modes then that's just down to implementation and it's in NI's own interest to keep their S4/S2 controllers ahead of the curve there.

only negative is that MIDI has to go thru the midi layer in windows/macosx, tho usually a single MIDI message (usually 3 bytes) is much smaller than a HID one (maybe 20 or 30 bytes even if all that changes is one jog wheel) so that should compensate.

[shr3dder]

Did you bother to read what I posted? The fact I was referring to was that the T1 uses midi to communicate with Traktor while the S4 uses NHL. NHL has far higher resolution and I do have experience using both. Even if you enjoy the feel of the jogs, that doesn't mean they're actually as precise as the S4 jogs.

To be clear - the following paragraph contains opinions. I have no emotional attachment to the S4 - I'm selling mine off - but I'm very glad that I went with it over the T1. I'm glad you're apparently happy with your T1, but you'd better believe I'm going to say something if you're recommending it to someone over the S4. Pioneer's marketing made the T1 look appealing, but in person the thing just feels like a toy at best, and a waste of $1000 at worst. It feels like a controller that should have cost about $600, not the $1100 or so it debuted at or the $900 I saw it going for at Guitar Center recently.

It was more the parts where you were yapping on about buyers remorse and the arrogant way you "Apologised" for me having one.



Technically the jogs might be more "precise" BUT he was asking for jogs that feel like the Pioneer and you tried to make them sound like they were pretty much rap and useless, which is far from the truth

For the record. I paid $750 (AUD) with the roadcase. No where near $1100.... or even $900.

[keeb]

being MIDI or HID has nothing to do with "higher resolution". the resolution of any jogs is purely down to the hardware and how many "ticks" are sent out per revolution. in the case of MIDI a tick results in an actual relative midi CC being send out and in the case of HID it results in the controller indicating that *something* has changed which then causes the software to request full status bytes (ish) for the entire controller.

if a controller seems to have a different latency between running in MIDI verses HID modes then that's just down to implementation and it's in NI's own interest to keep their S4/S2 controllers ahead of the curve there.

only negative is that MIDI has to go thru the midi layer in windows/macosx, tho usually a single MIDI message (usually 3 bytes) is much smaller than a HID one (maybe 20 or 30 bytes even if all that changes is one jog wheel) so that should compensate.

Straight from the bottom of http://www.native-instruments.com/#/...-s4/?page=1746

With a specially designed NHL protocol allowing 30 times more data to be processed compared to regular MIDI, the S4 is incredibly responsive.

It's not just marketing hype either - midi is limited to 127 steps of resolution because of the protocol vs. NHL which is about 4,000 or so IIRC. Also for midi jogs, you only get "note on" or "note off" information sent to the software which makes a huge difference in feel; the difference in feel between a VCI-100 (standard midi) and an S4 is night and day for the jogs and faders.

As for the midi vs. HID - HID is non-standardized, so implementation of it in a controller requires cooperation between the manufacturer of the controller and the manufacturer of the software. When both of those parties are the same company, it makes things much easier. DJTT had a writeup about HID on the blog a while back as I recall which said something to that effect. You're right though - it's in NI's interests to keep other hardware manufacturers from using NHL/HID.

And shr3dder - I didn't mean to imply they were crap or useless, more that they feel so terrible that I wouldn't want to use them. They're like nails-on-a-chalkboard bad in terms of feel. I much prefer something smoother like the S4 jog, and I really don't like the edges of the DDJ jogs. That combined with buttons that feel like they were lifted off of a cell phone makes me have the opinion that I do of the T1. Feel free to disagree - I simply hate how the controller feels and would never purchase one myself. Before I saw one in person I thought it looked like a decent controller; but after actually touching one, I was set on not buying it.

And RobotNinja - I know the S4 is capable of scratching. I'd just never want to do anything extensive on it. Even scratching a cue to mix in on the S4 isn't pleasant. The jogs are far too small and the lack of visual feedback means not looking at your hands as you're moving them on the tiny platter which makes the feel even worse as you struggle to keep your fingers on it and rotating around properly. No me gusta.

[DJQA]

The best jogs (for me) are probably found on the Numark NS6 and 4trak, for Itch and Traktor specifically. I have a 4trak, which uses HID for the jogs with Traktor. Very precise and with great feel, it's only Traktor's jog implementation that keeps it from achieving perfection. However, if you're looking for the CDJ feel of a micro switched jog, this is different since it's touch sensitive instead.

There's nothing wrong with MIDI for jogs as such, it's Traktor's implementation of them that sucks. Case in point, check out how fluid low end jogs feel in Serato Intro...

[MisterMoleyMole]

I've been looking at this 4trak but it looks like a bit of a beast and not much in the way of extra buttons to customise stuff.

I think I really want the VCI400 but am a bit worried about the jogs in Traktor. I'll have to try and find somewhere that has one to try.

[DJQA]

I've been looking at this 4trak but it looks like a bit of a beast and not much in the way of extra buttons to customise stuff.

For the way I do things, there's plenty of customisability in the buttons and sliders - but no, it's not exactly a VCI-400 in that regard. The big downside to the HID platters is that there is no way to customise their behaviour in Traktor, so there's no hope of getting VCI-100SE style jog FX going. Also, no sensitivity controls or any other niceties you get with MIDI jogs... but, the response is great.

[MisterMoleyMole]

The big downside to the HID platters is that there is no way to customise their behaviour in Traktor, so there's no hope of getting VCI-100SE style jog FX going.

If you remap anything within traktor do you lose the HID jogs? Isn't that what happens with the S4?

[padi_04]

HID mappings are normally open. S4/2 are exceptions since part of the mapping is handled via firmware.