Midi controller jogs

[MisterMoleyMole]

^ thanks

[keeb]

The issue is more that a lot of controllers (until the last year or so) haven't been 14-bit midi - they've been standard midi. I know the 127 steps issue doesn't apply to jogs (since they're more binary as I understand it?) - I recall from midi yoke's midi monitor that the wheels send only a note on/note off message at least with the vci-100. I am under the impression that the limitation does apply to faders and knobs with standard midi. All of that said, I wouldn't call myself an expert on midi by any means. From what I've read, HID is supposedly a theoretically better/more flexible protocol vs. standard midi, but it lacks standardization for mass implementation. As for real world examples - I would imagine this is why Pioneer use HID over midi with their CDJs - to display data from Traktor and to have tight control. Though admittedly, I've heard their HID integration with Traktor is so-so; but their HID with Serato is supposedly top-notch.

I also recall that Traktor's 14-bit midi implementation is lacking. I'm remembering this from when the vci-300 came out and people wanted to use it with Traktor, but couldn't use it properly because of Traktor's lack of 14-bit midi support. I think this has been corrected in patches since then, though not perfectly. This is why controllers utilizing 14-bit midi for Traktor have been more rare.

Again, I'm not an expert. However, my issue with the feel of the T1's jogs is with the physical feel, not with their communication with Traktor. My statements about its lack of HID support were more suppositions about its quality of feel with the software as well, and were more intended to point out that how well a midi controller performs depends on both the hardware and the software.

Thank you, though, for setting me straight about midi in general. I haven't looked into it with any seriousness for about two years, and the only controller I'm currently using in my setup is an X1 so my current experience with it is lacking. At the end of the day, even the S4's jogs weren't enjoyable enough for me to stick with midi controllers though - I'm a happy DVS convert.

As a side note though, I did find this decent chart about jog wheel resolution/features comparing the popular 4 deck controllers: http://www.starfelt.se/support/4%20D...Comparison.pdf

Resolution per jog rotation:
NS6: 3600
S4: 1000
DDJ-T1: 1200
Denon MC6000: 2000
Xone DX: 600

So according to that, the DDJ is actually higher resolution than the S4. Thus in theory, it's better integrated with the software. Unfortunately, those jogs just feel like crap to me - but that doesn't really matter to me since I wasn't about to buy one anyway. So, the NS6 (I assume you'd want the 4trak instead) would be the best choice in theory. The jogs on it are nicer than the S4 and the T1 as well.

[nem0nic]

The issue is more that a lot of controllers (until the last year or so) haven't been 14-bit midi - they've been standard midi.

MIDI is MIDI. 14bit messaging IS standard MIDI. It's been around since very nearly the beginning.

...since they're more binary as I understand it?

Encoders typically send a relative MIDI message instead of an absolute message. Relative messages aren't binary at all.

I recall from midi yoke's midi monitor that the wheels send only a note on/note off message at least with the vci-100.

I don't have a VCI-100 in front of me to test, but that would be a non-standard implementation. That isn't typical of most of the DJ controller market. It IS possible to send a note per platter "tick", however. And if a platter did behave in this manner, the fact that it was sending note messages would not in any way keep it from also being a high resolution message representing thousands of ticks per platter revolution.

...From what I've read, HID is supposedly a theoretically better/more flexible protocol vs. standard midi,...

There are definitely reasons why a developer might want to use HID instead of MIDI, but for the types of messaging common on a DJ controller HID isn't necessarily much better than MIDI. That is especially true of platter messaging.

I'm remembering this from when the vci-300 came out and people wanted to use it with Traktor, but couldn't use it properly because of Traktor's lack of 14-bit midi support.

I'm not sure that's really the reason why the VCI-300 wasn't a good controller for Traktor. I think people that couldn't be be bothered to learn about MIDI probably came to that incorrect conclusion.

At the end of the day, even the S4's jogs weren't enjoyable enough for me to stick with midi controllers though - I'm a happy DVS convert.

Although I wouldn't necessarily call the S4 a MIDI controller.

So according to that, the DDJ is actually higher resolution than the S4. Thus in theory, it's better integrated with the software.

That isn't a good theory at all. That's like saying "vehicle X has more horsepower than vehicle Y, so vehicle X is obviously faster". There are a lot of factors that go into performance. And there is definitely a point of diminishing returns when it comes to message resolution.

Higher resolution IS NOT always better.

[zestoi]

I don't have a VCI-100 in front of me to test, but that would be a non-standard implementation. That isn't typical of most of the DJ controller market. It IS possible to send a note per platter "tick", however. And if a platter did behave in this manner, the fact that it was sending note messages would not in any way keep it from also being a high resolution message representing thousands of ticks per platter revolution.

could be he's thinking of a note on/off message when u touch/release the jog as opposed to what gets sent out when they're moved.

Higher resolution IS NOT always better.

indeed... there must be (i presume) some optimum number of ticks per revolution based on the actual physical size of the platter. bugger all point a tiny jog wheel sending out 2k ticks per revolution so that even the tiniest movement sends out a heap of messages. i guess the optimum must be so that one tick is sent out for the smallest amount of movement that is possible to actually make.

i think the small jogs on my icon idj only send out 64 ticks per revolution but they feel fine to me...

[Quenepas]

And this is...?

Sorry this feels like a 7am meeting power point chart

[keeb]

And this is...?

Sorry this feels like a 7am meeting power point chart

It's a color-coded size comparison of the four controllers.

[MisterMoleyMole]

And this is...?

Sorry this feels like a 7am meeting power point chart

Are you serious!? It's pretty self explanatory not only just on its own but from the order in which it was posted.

[padi_04]

And this is...?

Sorry this feels like a 7am meeting power point chart

Here ya go mate

[synthet1c]

you're all wrong, it shows the aura of the controllers and therefore the type of vibrations the device gives to the audiance when you use it, I thought that would be obvious but i'll explain a little for those that aren't that learned (pronounced learn-ed).

the NS6 has a red aura, this controller projects angry energy on the crowd, the route cause of this feeling is too much scratching during performances. This controller makes the user believe that the ability to scratch is caused by the jogwheel resolution.

The S4 emits a blue vibration, this represents the crowd holding their breath for a mix that doesn't involve effects or cue jumps. The controller makes the user believe that dj's are meant to be performers first and educators second. Users generally are seen moshing on stage and tweeking effect parameters non stop, they are tricked into thinking that effects are individual and show their creativity.

The MC6000 is a neutral blue vibration, the crowd barely knows this controller is in charge of the mixing as the aura does not impose on the music, generally effects are sparingly used and the focus is on the mixing allowing the music to do its thing. Problems can arise however by trying to mix four channels of audio on any genre of music other than minimal.

The DDJ has the highest vibration, this represents how high the audiance needs to be to deal with the pioneers ego which is the dominant force in the room, it is completely arrogant and undeserved. Caution should be used when using pioneer gear as it tends to posess the user making them believe any other gear is substandard.

The aura is not an exact science as there are examples of all the controllers being used the right way with the dj's intelligence and experience overcoming the energy from the controller, however there is a strong correlation between beginner and amature users and the results of the study.

[MisterMoleyMole]

Effing brilliant ^