Serato dj. Worse than vdj?

[makar1]

The Jockey controller is 2 years old now, and was itself criticised for its poor jog wheel performance. Nothing has been released recently that's been designed specifically for Traktor.

And the TM4 gets the same criticism in its reviews as any other non-NI controller - poor jog wheel integration. It doesn't matter how high resolution the hardware is if it can't be put to use.

On the other hand the 4Trak gets praise for its decent jog wheel performance in Traktor yet apparently is still not good enough, so it stands to reason that the TM4 will only be worse.

[mdcdesign]

The Jockey controller is 2 years old now, and was itself criticised for its poor jog wheel performance. Nothing has been released recently that's been designed specifically for Traktor.

And the TM4 gets the same criticism in its reviews as any other non-NI controller - poor jog wheel integration. It doesn't matter how high resolution the hardware is if it can't be put to use.

On the other hand the 4Trak gets praise for its decent jog wheel performance in Traktor yet apparently is still not good enough, so it stands to reason that the TM4 will only be worse.

You're referring to the pre-release firmware and mapping which was tested by Ean Golden almost 2 years ago now; since then, the Jockey 3 has been re-released twice, both of which releases fixed numerous bugs and added new features, most recently about 3 weeks ago with the Jockey 3 Remix.

The TM4, on the other hand, has had nothing but praise for its jog wheels in Serato AND Traktor.

[makar1]

The TM4, on the other hand, has had nothing but praise for its jog wheels in Serato AND Traktor.

Quoting from the TM4 review comments on DDJTips: "As expected the jogs are less tight on traktor…"
From Phil Morse himself (another Reloop fanatic): "The S2 is the better controller for Traktor"

From the DJTT TM4 Review: "inherent limitations of MIDI mappings", "Traktor MIDI mappings don’t take advantage of some of the TM4′s best features that were built with turntablist Serato users in mind, such as Crossfader deck assignment switches and the jog wheels", "I cannot recommend the TM4 for DJs who exclusively use Traktor"

From DJ Booth: "In Serato DJ Intro, the DJ will have the tightest Jog Wheel integration of all and scratching will be much nicer than on Virtual DJ LE or Traktor"

And Digital Jockey: "[in VDJ] it is necessary to run many tests in order to understand what delay there is between the physical movement of the jogwheel and what is happening on the screen", "[in Traktor] As usual, working with the jogwheels is not very convenient, it is possible to scratch, manual start of tracks is very complicated."

I'm sure the TM4 works excellently in Serato as that's what it's designed for, but the general consensus seems to be that it has the same mediocre jog performance in Traktor as any other controller.

[haze324]

^
You earned a beer with that one.

I think what you will find is guys who don't scratch think decent jog wheel scrubbing is good jog wheel performace. Also, I have yet to see (perhaps it exists) a controller that has tight jogs using either Serato AND Traktor with the same exact controller. Numark had to change the firmware for the NS6, the DDJ-S1 and T1 worked differently, the VCI-300 is horrible with Traktor, etc.

[mdcdesign]

Quoting from the TM4 review comments on DDJTips: "As expected the jogs are less tight on traktor…"
From Phil Morse himself (another Reloop fanatic): "The S2 is the better controller for Traktor"

I just found this post, and tbh I'm quite surprised as I get the same performance out of the jogwheels on Traktor as I do on Serato... the TM4 isn't configured, firmware-wise, to send anything other than MIDI messages to ANY of the three software packages, so I assume it's just an issue with the Reloop factory mappings... I map everything myself, so I never experienced this. No sticker drift whatsoever with my mapping, for example.

On a related note, just found this gem regarding the Jockey 3, from Phil Morse:

"There’s nothing at all wrong with the Jockey 3 jogwheels, there was a real fuss over nothing about those. We never had a single problem after Traktor updated to 2.1.1, and even before then Reloop’s engineers did some pretty neat stuff in mapping 1:1 with the software." (http://www.digitaldjtips.com/2012/01...#comment-60061)

From the DJTT TM4 Review: "inherent limitations of MIDI mappings", "Traktor MIDI mappings don’t take advantage of some of the TM4′s best features that were built with turntablist Serato users in mind, such as Crossfader deck assignment switches and the jog wheels", "I cannot recommend the TM4 for DJs who exclusively use Traktor"

Similar problem here, just a lack of polish on the pre-release mappings; don't forget it was reviewed 3 weeks BEFORE launch, without either the mappings or firmware being finalized. As you can see in my video review, I've got the crossfader assignment switches mapped perfectly in Traktor, without excessive modifiers or anything like that... in both positions they send different MIDI notes on all 4 switches, so mapping is a piece of cake.

From DJ Booth: "In Serato DJ Intro, the DJ will have the tightest Jog Wheel integration of all and scratching will be much nicer than on Virtual DJ LE or Traktor"

They didn't actually test it with Traktor, just Serato and VDJ, so just pure speculation here.

And Digital Jockey: "[in VDJ] it is necessary to run many tests in order to understand what delay there is between the physical movement of the jogwheel and what is happening on the screen", "[in Traktor] As usual, working with the jogwheels is not very convenient, it is possible to scratch, manual start of tracks is very complicated."

Don't quite understand the last part there... translation error perhaps? :-\

I'm sure the TM4 works excellently in Serato as that's what it's designed for, but the general consensus seems to be that it has the same mediocre jog performance in Traktor as any other controller.

All I can say is, with the mapping I'm using, on Traktor 2.5+, the jog wheels are probably the best I've ever used, aside from the NS7 and the Denons, but that's because moving platters still have a special place in my heart. For static jogs, the TM4 beats everything else hands down - including my mates' S4.

[haze324]

^ curious can you adjust the tension on the jogs of the TM4.

I think that's what gives the VCI-300 such an advatage (probably the only one it has) on it's jogs. The tension allows for some very tight cuts.

Never really given the TM4 a look, but could be an option since I'm not all that thrilled with the NS6.

[mdcdesign]

^ curious can you adjust the tension on the jogs of the TM4.

I think that's what gives the VCI-300 such an advatage (probably the only one it has) on it's jogs. The tension allows for some very tight cuts.

Never really given the TM4 a look, but could be an option since I'm not all that thrilled with the NS6.

Unfortunately not You CAN, however, on the Jockey 3. They've got actual physical adjustment via a wheel for both platters independently. When they introduce a 4-deck version of the Jockey - which is quite likely at Musikmesse 2013 - it'll come with that ability

[makar1]

There is no controller on the market that gets top jog performance in Traktor using MIDI. NI specifically limit this so that people don't just go out and buy Serato controllers (i.e. 0 royalties to NI) and use a mapping file to get better performance than their S2, S4, and licensed/collaborated products.

Serato do the same thing - you can't use any of their software without licensed hardware connected.

Sticker drift has nothing to do with jog performance in this league of controllers. Neither do mapping versions. There's only so many ways you can create a MIDI mapping; it's such a simple process so there's no way you can blame poor jog performance on poor mappings. It's fairly obvious you don't do any scratching Mdc, since you always use the lack of sticker drift as your reasoning behind the jog performance of your gear.

Digital Jockey did a very detailed review on the TM4; their English isn't the best but it's clear they find performance better in Serato.

[mdcdesign]

There is no controller on the market that gets top jog performance in Traktor using MIDI. NI specifically limit this so that people don't just go out and buy Serato controllers (i.e. 0 royalties to NI) and use a mapping file to get better performance than their S2, S4, and licensed/collaborated products.

Serato do the same thing - you can't use any of their software without licensed hardware connected.

Sticker drift has nothing to do with jog performance in this league of controllers. Neither do mapping versions. There's only so many ways you can create a MIDI mapping; it's such a simple process so there's no way you can blame poor jog performance on poor mappings. It's fairly obvious you don't do any scratching Mdc, since you always use the lack of sticker drift as your reasoning behind the jog performance of your gear.

Digital Jockey did a very detailed review on the TM4; their English isn't the best but it's clear they find performance better in Serato.

That still doesn't address the issue of the fact that the TM4 uses MIDI to communicate with ALL software packages. Any inherent limitations in MIDI itself would surely be represented equally in both Serato and Traktor.

EDIT: Also: http://digitaldjtips.com/forum/threa...al-mix-4.4250/

[makar1]

Nope, since Serato do not artificially limit jog wheels from functioning properly. The Traktor MIDI limitation is created entirely by NI, using NHL as a scapegoat to promote their own "high definition jog wheels" on the S2+4. It's the compromise they have for making Traktor open to any and all MIDI devices.

The same issue was true with the VCI 300 - one of the best controllers ever made for scratch use, yet is unusable in Traktor.