Xone: DB4- the official unofficial thread

**JDFS** · 02-29-2012, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

I don't get why you're stating it's a non problem. It's clearly a flaw. It doesn't matter. Every kit has flaws.

For that few DJ's it's maybe a flaw, but not for the majority of customers. Clearly it has been made more for the digital DJ (X-Link...), to save cables. Maybe that's another reason for their non certificating, because it's not like Pioneer, for everyone?

You call it a flaw, A&H calls it something else. Plus the DB2/4 were made in co-operation with renowned DJ's, such as Speedy J (who was making music when I was still in my mom's belly). So in my opinion, their focus group is the Digital DJ, who couldn't care less about inputs, cause he will use the USB routing.

**mostapha** · 02-29-2012, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by JDFS

So you mean that you can set the headroom in Traktor for what, 9 dB and that exceeds every other mixer out there? Well, nice that the headroom is more than any analog mixer, but you must agree with me that if you use like for instance the Reverb or the Delay with max. feedback, your Master meter is close to red, if it isn't red already...

I've tried this method (External FX routing) on a Xone 22 and damn, it worked and it didn't clip like it used to be in Traktor.

But all of this isn't a problem anymore, since I'll be soon a DB owner.

I've done a lot of experimenting with how digital audio works in various systems and read a lot of stuff about it…and the headroom setting in Traktor is not the end of the story…it's a useless feature made to impress morons and try to keep them from clipping their DACs when they're too dumb to turn down Traktor's master.

Here's the thing. If you're using 24 bit files, that roughly translates (inside the computer) to 144dB of dynamic range between clipping and the noise floor. With sound card inputs, the noise floor is usually a little higher, mostly because of the analog stuff that happens before the ADC.

144dB of dynamic range. On any 24-bit digital system using integer representations. Traktor might use 32-bit floats internally, which means that the dynamic range inside Traktor is probably even more ridiculous.

If you decide to set up your amps so that 0dB at your sound card output is loud enough to cause immediate ear failure, -144dB is quiet enough that the vast majority of people will never hear it.

People don't get that.

Traktor, essentially, has as much freaking headroom as you want it to have. Turn your channel gains all the way down and your master down a bit. If your amps are good enough, it'll sound the same. If you put a clean digital gain stage after it, the resulting files are basically identical, with differences being made up entirely of rounding errors.

If you go below -48dB on your output, you'll start losing the quietest parts of your 16-bit audio files. But up to that point, there's basically no damage (apart from rounding error and assuming Traktor isn't doing anything stupid).

The only reason Traktor needs a limiter at all is because people don't understand gain staging in digital.

And even with the complete lack of understanding, they're doing some tricks to keep things from clipping anyway. Not only does Traktor have as much headroom as you could ever want, it's basically impossible to clip a signal internally…you just have to worry about your final output level.

If you start thinking of the digital 0dB as being analogous to a mixer's clip light instead of it's "ideal" 0 point on the output meter…everything starts making a lot more sense. And you get better results.

So, yes, Traktor is capable of having more dynamic range than any analog DJ mixer. What DJ mixers do you know that can play at +48 on the output meter as standard practice and not cilp? Hell, the big SSL/Neve recording consoles only go to +20 or +25, AFAIK.

Originally Posted by Xonetacular

Yeah with the new firmware you can run 4 TTs with soft RIAA option enabled which is pretty cool and works very well. Not that I would ever run 4 but there is the occasional DJ who uses 3 vinyl turntables.

That's kinda cool. Too bad it's probably buried in a menu somewhere.

Originally Posted by Eizhauz

Originally Posted by Xonetacular

Guys stop being mean to the DB4, what did it ever do to you?

It changed the game. Change is hard to accept.

Change is hard to accept when some decisions don't make any sense and limit your options more than older stuff.

How many people considered jumping ship from Apple when Launchpad was announced just because they didn't want to turn their Mac into an iPad? The flaws on the db4 are bigger.

Originally Posted by MrPopinjay

I don't get why you're stating it's a non problem. It's clearly a flaw. It doesn't matter. Every kit has flaws.

Agreed. I was just saying that I don't think it's benefits outweigh its flaws for me. Certainly not at that price.

Originally Posted by JDFS

You call it a flaw, A&H calls it something else. Plus the DB2/4 were made in co-operation with renowned DJ's, such as Speedy J (who was making music when I was still in my mom's belly). So in my opinion, their focus group is the Digital DJ, who couldn't care less about inputs, cause he will use the USB routing.

That's probably legit. Again, it's something that doesn't appeal to me. It's not good enough for the way I'd want to run Ableton, SSL, or Traktor without making me jump through a lot of hoops.

The best thing I can say about a piece of gear is that it gets the frak out of my way and lets me work the way I want with limitations that either make me more creative or don't bother me. The db4 does not earn that distinction for me.

Mostly I'm annoyed because it probably sounds incredible, and I'll never be happy playing on one.

**Eizhauz** · 02-29-2012, 06:13 PM

I am not going to get into a pissing contest over what are defined flaws and what aren't.

It is clear the A&H have a devoted fan base who seem keen on leaving analog in the dust and providing seamless inter-connectivity via Xlink to make up their gear. They have slim lined the 92 + 2D's into a completely digital modular package.

A&H aren't going to be the club standard with the DB series, but certainly DJ's who bring their own gear have a quality product customized to them.

In a word, it is a bit selfish on A&H's part, if not arrogant viewing from afar; however, the customer they are catering two isn't bothered by all this.

Change is uncomfortable because it is unsettles workflow, challenges old concepts, and introduce new horizons.

Whether one agrees with the change, it is changing nonetheless.

**wkonitzer** · 03-07-2012, 10:31 PM

Had the DB4 for a while now and it totally rocks - really brought the joy back into DJ'ing.

Are there any threads / sites / groups around that discuss any tricks on the DB4?

**Xonetacular** · 03-07-2012, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by wkonitzer

Had the DB4 for a while now and it totally rocks - really brought the joy back into DJ'ing.

Are there any threads / sites / groups around that discuss any tricks on the DB4?

Welcome! Not really that I know of, feel free to post in here.