The reason WHY A&H sounds warmer than Pioneer

[kelvin]

After purchasing a DDM4000, I wanted to set it up just like a Pioneer to understand how the installed rigs are general going to sound. This thread was very helpful, however, the specs noted (and updated) in the OP seemed a little off.
To test this, I used the pioneer eq emulation tool for ableton found here:
http://www.softcore.net.gr/projects.php

And then balanced the DDM4000's settings against the pioneer emulation using the spectral analyser within ableton.
Scientifically, I've made the two white noise waveforms match with the following settings (this works for both boost and cut frequency analysis):

So my view of setting the DDM4000's crossover points to emulate the colouring/frequency shape of a Pioneer is:
High: 4862Hz
Mid: 994Hz
Low: 476Hz
Mid Q: 0.76

*PLEASE NOTE that this likeness is only present before the DDM4000 EQ knob "kills" the signal (i.e. only the same upwards of 8 o'clock on the dial.)

I'd be very interested for someone independently to try the emulation that actually has access to a pioneer and report back?

Enjoy!

[loverocket]

you want warmth, I give you fire.

Two 1200's, a UREI 1620 mixer and a Vestax DCR-1500 filter isolator (knob heaven):

[Citizen_Insane]

Ace thread. Really interesting information and I'd assume that the simulated EQs in traktor use the same bands as the mixers they're simulating (pretty sure this has already been said). Thanks

In ancient Rome, Cato the Elder used to end every speech no matter what the topic by saying "Carthage must be destroyed."

Actually he ended them with "Carthago delenda est"

[rdubs]

The numbers exogenetic reported for Pioneer mixers are trash. To me, it looks like he took some numbers from the specifications without understanding what they mean. The numbers he reports do NOT refer to the crossover points.

Of course, most of us who have DJed on a Pio mixer will realize that movements in the Low knob yield significant response also above 70Hz.

And, for the record, my understanding is that A&H mixers sound "warmer" because, with all EQs in neutral position, they color the sound by taking away some high frequencies.

This.

[DarioJ]

i was always under the impression equalizers just pull up and down from a center point based on what freq the knob is set to?

you are making me think that you are thinking that the eq knobs are crossover points...which they are not...

so if you set your bass knob at 200k and a + or -24db slope, you will either gain or lose 24dbs per octive starting at the center point of 200k...depending on which way you turn the knob...so by this rational you will definitely hear a major difference between EQs because their center EQ frequencies are different...


yes? no? please correct me if i am wrong...

(i didnt come here to fight...just clear up my thinkning)

I also think this is an interesting read, but the question that Keithace asked never got answered. Can anyone clarify more clearly? It's basically the basis of the thread.

[Rukks]

Get into filters and how they are designed and its more complicated....isolators are also more complicated. The idea of the cutoffs for eq ranges is pretty trivial imo....i would like to see a comparison of the curves for a&h heath filters vs. pioneer filters.

I would imagine the pio filter would just be have steeper slopes but it would still be cool to see a visual comparison

[TCMuc]

This is a nice theory the OP has there, but it's basically wrong.

What he's describing is technically correct, but it's not the reason why Pioneer Mixers sound different from A&H Mixers.


First to the EQs. There are two main reasons why there are EQs on a DJ Mixer:

1. To avoid crashing frequencies when mixing, by removing the respective band on one channel if necessary

2. To adjust frequencies on single tracks to match them to the overall sound, e.g. if you're playing an old disco record that has less bass than a modern production, or you're playing a worn out record that lacks highs.


For everything else, you should trust the producer to have balanced the individual frequencies in his track so that the tracks sounds as good as possible and the sound guy in the venue you're playing at to have the settings of the system so it delivers the optimal sound (with the EQs on the mixer centred!). There is absolutely no reason to adjust the channel EQ (apart from the two mentioned above) and you shouldn't do it, as you actually woul probably make the sound worse.


If the OP's theory was true, Pioneer and A&H mixers would sound identical when the EQs are in the center position, which they don't. And here's why:


1. Pioneer mixers (the new ones post 500/600) are digital, whereas A&H mixers are analogue. Now what does that mean. As someone mentioned above, every component a signal passes can color the sound. Every ANALOGUE component, that is. A digital signal does not get affected by the various components it passes through, as it is merely a stream of 1s and 0s. So apart from the manipulation that is deliberatly applied to the signal through use of EQs and EFX, the signal stays completely unaffected inside a Pioneer mixer, while in an A&H mixer the actual audio signal runs through a number of electric components, each of them slightly affecting the signal. Manufacturers actually chose the components they use at least partly by the way they affect the sound...

Another difference between analogue and digital sets in once you get into clipping. Digital mixers can either clip or not clip. Once you reach 0 dBFS you clip, below that you're fine. With analogue mixers it's more of a slight progression, once you come to the end of the headroom. And while digital clipping is harsh/diharmonic, analogue clipping actually adds harmonic overtones to the signal, which are often perceived as "warmth". (By no means do I want to encourage anybody to clip his mixer to get a warm sound. Clipping is just bad and will eventually kill your speakers. Period!)


2. While Pioneer mixers have a rather flat frequency response, A&H mixers deliberatly colour the sound, on top of what I said above. A friend of mine did a test and found out that the Xone's slightly boost the signal at about 50Hz, which is where kick drum and/or bass are sitting in many modern dance tracks, which adds to the warm sound as well.
If you think an A&H mixer sounds warm, you should try listen to an old Bozak mixer. Those things really emphasized the low end, partly to make up for the thin bass frequencies in disco records back in the days.



OT: @Citizen_Insane: Actually he ended them with "Ceterum censeo carthaginem esse delendam"

[softcore]

After purchasing a DDM4000, I wanted to set it up just like a Pioneer to understand how the installed rigs are general going to sound. This thread was very helpful, however, the specs noted (and updated) in the OP seemed a little off.
To test this, I used the pioneer eq emulation tool for ableton found here:
http://www.softcore.net.gr/projects.php

Greetings to the forum! I just saw this message and wanted to say, before anyone starts accusing me of being inacurate, that my emulations were done in the mindframe of being "as close as it can be" to the emulated devices using only native Ableton Live EQ and grouped mappings. I hope they are not considered as the "end all, be all" super accurate stuff. They just get the job done, pretty close to the real thing and thats all.

In other words, my null tests were "close" to silence...but not complete silence!

Also, to contribute to the topic, the specs given by Pioneer and A&H about the Eq sections are indeed vague and inacurate too - thats why I had to use white noise recordings and, practically, make my emulations based on what the FFT analysers were showing rather than what the specs say.

Anyways, Im glad people have found them useful! Keep on the great stuff DJTechTools!

[djproben]

Actually he ended them with "Carthago delenda est"

Gibba mortuorum!

[djchriswoods.co.uk]

This is a nice theory the OP has there, but it's basically wrong.

What he's describing is technically correct, but it's not the reason why Pioneer Mixers sound different from A&H Mixers.


First to the EQs. There are two main reasons why there are EQs on a DJ Mixer:

1. To avoid crashing frequencies when mixing, by removing the respective band on one channel if necessary

2. To adjust frequencies on single tracks to match them to the overall sound, e.g. if you're playing an old disco record that has less bass than a modern production, or you're playing a worn out record that lacks highs.


For everything else, you should trust the producer to have balanced the individual frequencies in his track so that the tracks sounds as good as possible and the sound guy in the venue you're playing at to have the settings of the system so it delivers the optimal sound (with the EQs on the mixer centred!). There is absolutely no reason to adjust the channel EQ (apart from the two mentioned above) and you shouldn't do it, as you actually woul probably make the sound worse.


If the OP's theory was true, Pioneer and A&H mixers would sound identical when the EQs are in the center position, which they don't. And here's why:


1. Pioneer mixers (the new ones post 500/600) are digital, whereas A&H mixers are analogue. Now what does that mean. As someone mentioned above, every component a signal passes can color the sound. Every ANALOGUE component, that is. A digital signal does not get affected by the various components it passes through, as it is merely a stream of 1s and 0s. So apart from the manipulation that is deliberatly applied to the signal through use of EQs and EFX, the signal stays completely unaffected inside a Pioneer mixer, while in an A&H mixer the actual audio signal runs through a number of electric components, each of them slightly affecting the signal. Manufacturers actually chose the components they use at least partly by the way they affect the sound...

Another difference between analogue and digital sets in once you get into clipping. Digital mixers can either clip or not clip. Once you reach 0 dBFS you clip, below that you're fine. With analogue mixers it's more of a slight progression, once you come to the end of the headroom. And while digital clipping is harsh/diharmonic, analogue clipping actually adds harmonic overtones to the signal, which are often perceived as "warmth". (By no means do I want to encourage anybody to clip his mixer to get a warm sound. Clipping is just bad and will eventually kill your speakers. Period!)


2. While Pioneer mixers have a rather flat frequency response, A&H mixers deliberatly colour the sound, on top of what I said above. A friend of mine did a test and found out that the Xone's slightly boost the signal at about 50Hz, which is where kick drum and/or bass are sitting in many modern dance tracks, which adds to the warm sound as well.
If you think an A&H mixer sounds warm, you should try listen to an old Bozak mixer. Those things really emphasized the low end, partly to make up for the thin bass frequencies in disco records back in the days.



OT: @Citizen_Insane: Actually he ended them with "Ceterum censeo carthaginem esse delendam"

this +1