Getting a hard time cause i use a controller

[MrPopinjay]

I specified 127 steps so it must be a CC value, yeah?

So that's knobs, faders, keys or pads. We're talking about beat matching so I doubt keys or pads will come into it so I must be talking about knobs and faders.

Nevertheless even if you can't work that out you should have noticed that I didn't say shit about midi being something you can't beat match with. I was strangely specific, as I'm talking about one little element.

And even if somehow you missed that or you skimmed over my post and then replied in a rage as butthead controllerist who is all upset became some twats are dissing your art form again and decided to take it out on me you should be able to understand now I've explicitly and repeated clarified my meaning purely for your benefit and drop it.

I fucking know you can DJ with midi. Stop trying to disagree with me, I'm making the same fucking point you are.

p.s. Implying midi isn't high enough resolution? I'm STATING it's not high enough resolution- solution? Use a method of control not limited by the resolution of midi, an encoder.

[Cardell]

Whoah hold your horses, first off I'm obviously not the butthurt one here. And there's not been a single hue of rage in any of my posts. There is no need for you externalize your anger. Arguing on the internet is probably the most stupid thing known to man, but clearly I'm trying to convey my method rather than opinion at this point, but this appears to be totally moot to you. Saddening, as people's methods are an integral part to learning and understanding, no matter your own preference or opinion. I couldn't care less if you consider me to be wrong, but failing to realize where I'm coming from in this argument is what's motivating me to reply.
And I don't even consider myself a controllerist, but a digital DJ, where the differentiation is akin to a turntabalist and a vinyl dj.

As for CCs, they can be controlled in a numerous amount of ways, naturally the most common ones are those you listed, but there are other means as well. So even though you stated CCs, you were not been specific enough, and the amount of steps is then still relevant to the midi protocol itself rather than a specific control.

Your single line response to the post you quoted, stating that it is possible to learn to beatmatch with a controller, in conjunction with the way your response was interpreted to concern the midi protocol itself is what lead to my response.

Furthermore with the data examples you provided, I don't understand why you didn't choose a 2% pitch range for midi for the chosen track tempos. At 175bpm the resolution is 0.06 for a midi fader, at 128bpm it's 0.04, both good enough to hold a mix.

[MrPopinjay]

Yes, but the other control types don't feature 127 steps so they don't really matter. I'm specifically talking about the 127 steps. Nothing else.

That's completely true- +/- 2% would totally solve the problem of the resolution being too large but it introduces a new one, your range is tiny! You could only mix in a track that's within 2% of the previous one. Doing the DnB 175 BPM thing again that means that's 171.5 to 178.5. I guess it'd do but I'd prefer a larger pitch range.

Howwwwever we can actually solve this problem with 2 pitch faders working relatively to give us a range of +/- 4% with 2 faders. Or +/- 6% with 3

I'm not sure if I'd go for this or an encoder though... I've not tried it so I don't know how fiddly it might end up being.

[Cardell]

They do feature 127 steps, as they send CC data. As an example of an exotic control that could send midi data, take an IR sensor that is configured to be proximity sensitive, at some point it will convert the value it's received so that the midi brain is able to interpret it, possibly as a resistance. In order to be midi compliant, it would only have 128 states, despite the physical sensor's (with respect to midi) close to infinite resolution. If you disagree that this device would have 127 steps, then faders or knobs (as examples) wouldn't either have steps. As all they do are controlling resistances, which is up to the brain to interpret. The physical length of a fader has of course nothing to do with handling midi to the point where human error occurs (such as beatmatching with a 20mm fader would be stupid, and a 100mm fader would be more precise, but the 100mm would need to be moved distances without perceived changes, i.e. no midi data sent).

As for having a tiny range, I mentioned it was based around the track bpms you listed. Mappings allow you to change the pitch range on the fly however. 2%, for a genre, is almost always enough. Also don't forget that if you're subtle enough, a 2% change on the playing track isn't even noticeable on the dance floor, meaning you get a larger range than you might expect at first, considering as both tracks can be adjusted.

If you work out a viable system for relative faders I'd be happy to try it out just for kicks. This is highly unlikely to be something you can do with Traktor due to the way tempo information is handled using controllers on the market. If that is fixed and supported, it could be possible.
On an analog system such as a pair of turntables, it would be easier. It would require faders with different resistances being interconnected in some fashion - perhaps as simple as connecting the first fader's wiper to the second fader's ground and chain them in that sense, or possibly as complex as using a micro controller that with firmware determines what value you are trying to pinpoint. It would actually be pretty new with vinyl: having one fader for a a larger range, and a second fader for a smaller range that simply is adding to the second one.

Until then I'll happily twist my rotaries.

[MrPopinjay]

That's true but a fader alone isn't a midi controller, the brain is a vital part of it. You can get into other exotic control types but as long as they are sending a range of data over 127 steps they are not going to be suitable for a pitch control for the same reasons I explained before. I've not once mentioned fader length, that's a different issue entirely.

What do you mean by change pitch on the fly btw? As in change the pitch range?

I disagree with 2% being enough, none of the genres I play reside within a +/- 2% range. (That's dubstep, jungle, dnb and hardcore if you're interested)

Actually it's extremely easy to do with traktor! You just map two pitch faders and set them to relative rather than absolute! Then it's just a matter of fiddling with it to find the value that would give it your desired pitch range.

[ToOntown]

If you rely on sync, you're a loser. No really, you are.

I have gone 27 years without fitting any "loser" criteria and now I find out that I am in fact a loser.

Thank you for bringing this to my attention.

[Cardell]

Yes, but I was merely pointing out that they infact in the end send out data that is interpreted as a range of 0-127 in midi.

Indeed changing the pitch range.

No genre really resides within a 2% range, but when changing the tempo by large amounts, the atmosphere may or may not change radically. It is no matter what common practice to gradually alter the the tempo of a set, so I see this as a non-problem as I usually play slower tracks (120-130), but when playing dnb or hardcore, I manage using just the 2% range.

I had totally forgotten that relative mode nowadays is enabled for the pitch fader control in Traktor. Then it's easy as pie!

[dual citizen]

127 steps isn't enough my friend.

I use buttons too. Taking a cue from one of Ean's early Midifighter mappings, I have four buttons assigned per deck. Two are tempo bend buttons (+ and -). Two are pitch adjust buttons. I think I set them to "fine". Use the pitch fader to get within a close range, then finish adjustments using the buttons.

I often rely on sync though, because beatmatching it's a purely mechanical operation that brings me no joy. I don't play in clubs, only at home, and sync gives me more time to think about my next song, transition, mix drinks, etc.

[Grifff]

There is one thing they all have in common and if the music sucks ass you are still a shit dj...... End of!

Yeah, exactly. I was listening to a Carl Cox set he did for the Space Ibiza opening a few years ago. The beatmatching between a few of the songs double beats a bit but the songs he played were immense.

[MrPopinjay]

I use buttons too. Taking a cue from one of Ean's early Midifighter mappings, I have four buttons assigned per deck. Two are tempo bend buttons (+ and -). Two are pitch adjust buttons. I think I set them to "fine". Use the pitch fader to get within a close range, then finish adjustments using the buttons.

Actually that's not a bad idea either. So three nice low res midi solutions