Question about mixing on the fly..

[JasonBay]

Ok, there's a lot of advice in this thread that doesn't make any sense. Music in general is divided into measures, bars, and then beats. EDM is 4/4 which means 4 beats per bar, 4 bars per measure. Everything, and I mean literally everything that makes musical sense, is broken down into a number of measures, often with slight phrase variations measure by measure.

Like I said, close, but not always true. Not every track follows this to the letter, some have an extra bar, or just a 1/4 of a bar, at the end of a breakdown or during the outro for example, and if you're assuming what you just said your whole mix could be off suddenly.

[Shishdisma]

And for most of house and techno you're just plain wrong stating that 4 bars would constitute a phrase, it's 8 bars in the vast majority of cases (btw, your terminology is a bit off as well, "measure" and "bar" are basically synonyms in this context, what you meant was "phrase")

In the end that might not be overly important, as most people probably don't count that stuff but rather hear it/get a feel for it. But still: it's 8 bars, just listen for it

Whoops, my lack of formal musical training strikes again, and apparently I didn't know how to read a time signature

A phrase is typically 4 bars, if it's not outright changing, the melody typically flourishes and resets, and a track progresses on the end of a multiple of a 4 bar count. Using my retardo notation, an 8 bar phrase would consist of 2 "measures," I just always divide it like that because builds and breaks almost always have two "parts" to them that come in after half a phrase (the whole build or break being a single phrase), and it's easier to cue like that to keep breaks from getting all weird and building when I'm trying to transition into another drop. I'm technically wrong and right at the same time, because something relevant to mixing typically does happen after every 4 bars, but not a completely phrase.

[lethal_pizzle]

Time signature has no bearing on the length of a phrase, apart from suggesting what it's a multiple of. Take common time 4/4. The lower numeral indicates the note value that equals a beat; a quarter note. The top numeral indicates the number of beats in a bar. So we're talking 4 crotchet beats a bar.

I usually use 8 bars for a phrase as most of the time this is how long it takes for a complete phrase to be stated. Even when it is stated in 4 bars, you'll usually find it's repeated again for a total of 8 bars - and it's then that you'll get the bigger changes in overall intensity.

I usually mark up my cue points with the number of blocks of 32 beats until the bass drops or the beat comes in and it's pretty rare it's not a block of 32.

*caveats - conventions are regularly broken for musical effect. Beware.

[Shishdisma]

Time signature has no bearing on the length of a phrase, apart from suggesting what it's a multiple of. Take common time 4/4. The lower numeral indicates the note value that equals a beat; a quarter note. The top numeral indicates the number of beats in a bar. So we're talking 4 crotchet beats a bar.

I usually use 8 bars for a phrase as most of the time this is how long it takes for a complete phrase to be stated. Even when it is stated in 4 bars, you'll usually find it's repeated again for a total of 8 bars - and it's then that you'll get the bigger changes in overall intensity.

I usually mark up my cue points with the number of blocks of 32 beats until the bass drops or the beat comes in and it's pretty rare it's not a block of 32.

*caveats - conventions are regularly broken for musical effect. Beware.

Yeah, redacted, I just had a false impression from not actually being taught what I know, whoops.

Typically, you're right, and in a main melody, and intros/outros, that's absolutely correct. I just usually mentally split it up to account for the repeating melody after 4, and any kind of flourishes that occur after 4. The actual length to the "part" is 8 bars, or one technical phrase. The weird exception to this, and the main reason I recommend the 2 parts-4 bars thinking, is that most breaks that have a build do so over 8 perfectly split bars. So while the whole phrase is break-drop, the break usually lasts an even 4, and the build takes the other 4, making one phrase with two distinct parts, which I think is the most significant thing about build cueing that people need to realize.

[lethal_pizzle]

It's all good!

Technically and historically I'm completely wrong of course - to get into the theory for a minute, typically house music (for example) is composed of 32 beat 'phrase groups' which contains a 16 beat 'antecedent phrase' followed by a 16 beat 'consequent phrase'. The antecedent phrase is the equivalent of 'asking a question' and the consequent phrase is the equivalent of 'answering the question', so typically you need to state them both in order for the music to be satisfactorily resolved.

This is why you generally only get big changes in texture, timbre or intensity at the end of a consequent phrase, and also explains why mixing an antecededent phrase and a consequent phrase together quite often leaves things feeling bit unsatisfying. That's why I normally count in 32 beats. It is the simplest way of stating the above. Mentally, I picture the music like a return train journey or the tide. It leaves (antecedent), it comes back (consequent). To mix 'em together, you want them leaving at the same time.

*caveats - there are always caveats with music

[mostapha]

The weird exception to this, and the main reason I recommend the 2 parts-4 bars thinking, is that most breaks that have a build do so over 8 perfectly split bars. So while the whole phrase is break-drop, the break usually lasts an even 4, and the build takes the other 4, making one phrase with two distinct parts, which I think is the most significant thing about build cueing that people need to realize.

What kind of music do you listen to. Either i'm not understanding you or we spin very different genres? If you're talking about modern electro or what people are calling progressive house now, you might be right…but neither of them is house, to which that does not apply……unless I'm misunderstanding you again.

In house, buildups tend to take 8 or 16 bars if not longer. Breakdowns tend to be 32 or 64 if not longer. A breakdown that short isn't a real breakdown.

It's all good!…

I'd always heard this described as call & response…both of which happen in one phrase.

[lethal_pizzle]

I'm probably muddying the waters somewhat with stuff I learnt ages ago when I was studying classical music! Anyway OP, here's a djtechtools article on it:
http://www.djtechtools.com/2009/01/2...e-perfect-mix/

[D-Kem]

No, you can't. Not understanding phrasing makes you think you can. To everyone who actually understands music, you sound like shit when you do that.

At the end of a phrase, you can use a cue point to jump to another phrase than the one you're supposed to go to. And that helps. But if you have no idea when they are, you'll still sound bad doing it.



Fixed.

Yeah what I was intimating at but didn't put in those exact words so fair enough Mostapha.

[D-Kem]

Balls! Didn't quote the part I meant. Ah well shouldn't post after a long night shift.

[Patch]

Pretty interesting thread. One thing I'd throw in - BEWARE WHEN DL'ing free tracks!!! I've found some that sounded pretty bloody good, but they've got weird song structures (and by weird I mean the people making them didn't completely understand how to put a track together).

These tunes stick out like a sore thumb when you're mixing.