Pioneer xdj-r1?? - Page 26
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  1. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shishdisma View Post
    You're complaining, speculatively, that Pioneer equipment doesn't have the mythical hardware power to handle a retarded pitch range that nobody uses, and then advocating buying the Gemini knockoff of said gear.
    The 7000 is a better knockoff of a CDJ1000/2000 than the R1 is. And there's nothing mythical about 100mm pitch faders. I have units with them in both 10 and 14bit.
    Last edited by Reticuli; 07-07-2013 at 04:32 PM.

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    It's a guess. A lot of Pioneer gear is 10bit. Pioneer's gear that is 14bit usually doesn't even take advantage of it fully in the firmware. And a short sub-100mm fader that is 14bit will behave like a bad 10bit fader, anyway. You will not get useable 14bit unless its 100mm. To hit this price point, I ASSUME Pioneer used 10bit faders. If they didn't, then they're even dumber than the short faders would seem to indicate, as they're wasting their margin on higher-end faders when they're using a size format that can't even take advantage of it. As I said, that fader size can barely take advantage of 10bit stable. Try sticking a fader like that at 16% and you'll see it flutter between the nearest two values. You'll have to run it at under 16% to get it stable at even .05, and you'll have to go much lower (probably 4-6%) to get stable resolution better than that.
    no disrespect, but that is a WHOLE lot of guesswork and assumption. I would rather hear from someone who has actually used a unit physically.

  3. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by dillinger23 View Post
    no disrespect, but that is a WHOLE lot of guesswork and assumption. I would rather hear from someone who has actually used a unit physically.
    Fair enough. Most of Pioneer's gear has been 10bit. Some of their newer gear that has 14bit faders has tended not to fully take advantage of it in transport mode even when they are long enough. A fader that is shorter than 100mm cannot resolve 14bit resolution effectively. To assume the R1 is either a 10bit undersized fader or WAY undersized 14bit one is a very educated guess.

    If it only has one USB memory port and cannot preload an entire track, then all this is moot and it’s a bum integrated unit, period... an overpriced controller. But suit yourself. I personally would also take the opinion of someone who actually bought one with a grain of salt, considering the issues.
    Last edited by Reticuli; 07-07-2013 at 04:34 PM.

  4. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    Fair enough. Most of Pioneer's gear has been 10bit. Some of their newer gear that has 14bit faders has tended not to fully take advantage of it in transport mode. A fader that is shorter than 100mm cannot resolve 14bit resolution effectively. To assume the R1 is either a 10bit undersized fader or WAY undersized 14bit one is a very educated guess.

    If it only has one USB memory port and cannot preload an entire track, then all this is moot and it’s a bum device, period... an overpriced controller. But suit yourself. I personally would also take the opinion of someone who actually bought one with a grain of salt, considering the issues.
    Not going to get into a flamewar here But I also disagree with this idea that one USB is not enough. You do not need more than 10,000 tracks on one device, just redo your USB each time you want to include different tunes in your 10,000. Also, the buffer issue doesnt matter. Just take one single (or a couple) CD full of WAV files, and every time you want to change a USB source, simply use a track from the CD(s) to transition! Problem solved!

  5. #255

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    Fair enough. Most of Pioneer's gear has been 10bit. Some of their newer gear that has 14bit faders has tended not to fully take advantage of it in transport mode even when they are long enough. A fader that is shorter than 100mm cannot resolve 14bit resolution effectively. To assume the R1 is either a 10bit undersized fader or WAY undersized 14bit one is a very educated guess.

    If it only has one USB memory port and cannot preload an entire track, then all this is moot and it’s a bum integrated unit, period... an overpriced controller. But suit yourself. I personally would also take the opinion of someone who actually bought one with a grain of salt, considering the issues.
    Assuming you're absolutely set on using a 16% pitch range, which given that CDJs have an effing 6% range with a .02% resolution, 100mm faders are rather unnecessary. The bit depth of the fader isnt really a factor at that range.

  6. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by dillinger23 View Post
    Not going to get into a flamewar here But I also disagree with this idea that one USB is not enough. You do not need more than 10,000 tracks on one device, just redo your USB each time you want to include different tunes in your 10,000. Also, the buffer issue doesnt matter. Just take one single (or a couple) CD full of WAV files, and every time you want to change a USB source, simply use a track from the CD(s) to transition! Problem solved!
    I have tens of thousands of tracks, and that's after weeding out the overly short ones and the duplicates. I like to have the option to play whatever I feel like. In the case of the R1, you're buying a $900 integrated transport/mixer unit that would require you to keep the same USB memory device connected at all times for continuous playback. That's a big oversight that seems oblivious to a pretty basic need. Not even the Gemini and some models costing half the Gemini have that problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shishdisma View Post
    Assuming you're absolutely set on using a 16% pitch range, which given that CDJs have an effing 6% range with a .02% resolution, 100mm faders are rather unnecessary. The bit depth of the fader isnt really a factor at that range.
    It most definitely is a factor. Pitch range, while it does cause the effective resolution to be scaled, does not cap pitch resolution. Fader length, however, is a major factor in resolution stability, which either results in fluttering if there's not enough room, or lower resolution if you limit it in the firmware and abandon what the fader is technically capable of but unable to give you in a stable manner due to the short length. Reloop and MixVibes have controller/interface units with 14bit faders that do show up as 14bit in software, but are examples as to what a waste they are when they are too short.

    On Pioneer, Denon, and other brands' units that have 100mm 10bit faders, I tend to mix at the 16% range since they usually use the same pitch resolution as the more conventional 10% range that's closer to most vinyl turntables. With a 100mm fader, there is no problem mixing that way and the pitch is always rock solid. It affords maximum range with sufficient pitch resolution to get the job done.

    According to the manual, the R1 has about the same pitch resolution as the other Pioneers, which means it's either a poor implementation of a 14bit fader, or a 10bit one. The transport mode pitch res it has is capable with a 10bit fader, though at that length will be more difficult to be stable at the 16% setting than if it were 100mm. There’s plenty of room for a properly implemented 100mm fader, even a 14bit one.
    Last edited by Reticuli; 07-07-2013 at 06:18 PM.

  7. #257
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    Where in the R1 manual does it say what pitch resolution it has? And why are you so set on declaring that the faders are unusable without even trying out the unit yourself, or even basing your argument on actual reviews?
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  8. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by makar1 View Post
    Where in the R1 manual does it say what pitch resolution it has? And why are you so set on declaring that the faders are unusable without even trying out the unit yourself, or even basing your argument on actual reviews?
    Page 15. I did not say the fader length made it unusable. I said there are other cheaper units with better faders and that the full resolution when in 16% will not be stable. As in less than optimal. If you don't mind pitch bending or nudging those faders frequently, working at a lower pitch range (like 10), or using sync, it will still be fine. Why are you so intent on defending an overpriced product with an inferior design? Geez, this is a $900 item that I find out has only has one USB device port! And it turns out no ability to accept tracks offloaded from a laptop! Prior reviews and previews had said this was an Aero with CD Players and the Apple stuff added. Nope. I'm disappointed. I wanted to buy one to justify moving over to Rekordbox management at a reasonable price. Right now I use no database management on my drives.
    Last edited by Reticuli; 07-07-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  9. #259
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    Page 15 mentions how to change the Tempo Range, but says absolutely nothing about resolution. 10% is a perfectly adequate tempo range which will rarely if ever be used fully.

    You can use VDJ with the R1 if you want to play tracks from a laptop, and I'm sure it will work with other software too. Or get an Aero if you want to stream directly from Rekordbox.
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  10. #260

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reticuli View Post
    Why are you so intent on defending an overpriced product with an inferior design? Geez, this is a $900 item that I find out has only has one USB device port! And it turns out no ability to accept tracks offloaded from a laptop! Prior reviews and previews had said this was an Aero with CD Players and the Apple stuff added. Nope. I'm disappointed. I wanted to buy one to justify moving over to Rekordbox management at a reasonable price. Right now I use no database management on my drives.
    You're declaring this an "inferior design" over to two things that are so literally insignificant they have virtually no practical impact on the deck. Meanwhile advocating a Chinese knockoff, renown as near-unusable due to core issues, as the superior alternative.... Uhh...

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