Panning & EDM?
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Thread: Panning & EDM?

  1. #1

    Default Panning & EDM?

    let's get down and dirty with some advanced mixing techniques/discussions. so here's the theory for those unfamiliar with panning:

    most of us here that are only DJs know of panning as shifting the audio from left to right (talking simply stereo and skipping 5.1 audio, we'll get to that later), and maybe have dabbled with it a few times. for anyone who has gotten into producing, or studied tracks, you may have noticed that some instruments are panned differently than others throughout the song (guitars on right, bass on left, drums center, etc), or maybe a cool effect that shifted from one side to the other, giving a "sweeping" effect.

    when dealing with a lot of instruments in a song, you may find that putting everything in the "center" makes the mix sound crowded. with every instrument fighting for that center position, things can get muddy. just like if you saw a band live on stage, you don't see their amps/PAs huddled together next to/on top of each other, they're spread out over the stage. but what about EDM? sure, the drums are usually going to be dead center, they are the lifeline, and to give them more to one side of the dancefloor would be unfair, no? however, hi-hats can fluctuate to give a little motion, but whatever drives the beat should be equally spread throughout the stereo spread.

    but this got me thinking: what elements can really be spread out over the spread and still sit as properly in the mix as they should? i've mentioned that hi-hats can be given an occasional throw to either side, and snares could even alternate sides (i'm thinking more in terms of dubstep, if it's hard to get a mental image of this), but this leaves some crucial elements still fighting for that center spot: the "rhythm-driver" (bass drum, or whatever it may be), bassline, melody, etc. can these elements still sit centered and not be too crowded? the issue is finding a spread that sounds right for EDM. when i picture a bassline panned left and a melody panned right i just don't see it sounding good at all. anyone have a good method of panning this type of music?

    on the subject of 5.1, a quick question: if i had something panned in a way that only 5.1 could position correctly, how is it panned when played on a stereo system? i'd assume the 5.1 system has a measurement for how far left and right the sound is panned, so the stereo signal would just read this and disregard the extra information?

    any help/advice you guys can give is greatly appreciated.
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    freakstep.com / thefreakbeat.com
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  2. #2
    Dr. Bento BentoSan's Avatar
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    Its true that lumping everything into the center is going to give you a more muddy sounding mix than doing some panning, especially when you have two sounds occupying the same frequency range, panning helps a huge amount here to get a clearer sound because it helps the frequencies not to be fighting one another as much. The crowding muddy effect really is only present when you have 2 sounds occupying the same frequency range playing at the same time.

    To overcome the "Crowding effect" with a bassline and a kickdrum sidechain compression is used, so the very low end of the bass quickly drops away when the kick hits then comes back - this way you can have the bass and the kick drums panned centre and you dont have them fighting one another.

    As for your 5.1 question. 5.1 recordings contain multiple channels while a stereo recording only contains 2 channels. If you play a 5.1 recording on a 2 channel system your only going to hear the left and right channels - that is of course unless you mix the other channels into the stereo signal.

  3. #3

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    ah, duh. i know the technique and have used it a couple times on tracks. sometimes over-thinking things blocks out your common sense :P

    thanks for the clarification on 5.1, too. how widespread is club usage of 5.1 systems?
    soundcloud.com/hpntk / soundcloud.com/freakstep
    freakstep.com / thefreakbeat.com
    me on beatport / me on djtunes
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterNZDJ
    My solution: Pay some one to whack them so you don't have any competition

  4. #4
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    Lemme just say that way to many clubs still have mono or mono sum systems

    I never go more that 70% pan on sounds... I think of panning just like actors on stage, the more important to the plot they are the more center stage they have to be...
    I use HPF on almost all sounds except on BassDrum, sidechain on bassline is a must ...
    No panning on BD ans Bass all the rest gets panned... I use a simple rule, similar sounds get opposite panning... not only u get more space in the mix but it also sounds more intrigging and attention catching to your ears... you can do preatty minimal stuff without sounding like a total LOOP just by cleverly using pan!!

    jus my 2 cents,

    Z

  5. #5
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    another thing some clubs are so big that if you use to much pan the people standing next to the right speaker only get about "half" of yer music message.
    5.1. to me only makes sense with effects like verb, delays ans stuff, even with EDM center stage makes sense unless you really tame down all other channels to introduce only one sound to one of the channels... hummm how can I explain better!??
    with 2 or 2.1 you can get a long with even 2 different guitar riffs, one on each side, but mre than thing it would feel like standing in the middle of an argument with 5 people talking at the same time ... to much info! IMHO!

    Z

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ_Ze_MigL View Post
    I think of panning just like actors on stage, the more important to the plot they are the more center stage they have to be.
    ...

    I use a simple rule, similar sounds get opposite panning
    great analogy, i like that. what do you mean by "similar" sounds, though?
    soundcloud.com/hpntk / soundcloud.com/freakstep
    freakstep.com / thefreakbeat.com
    me on beatport / me on djtunes
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterNZDJ
    My solution: Pay some one to whack them so you don't have any competition

  7. #7
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    exemple open and closed hats, crash, ride cymbals... all similar-ish sounds ... I believe it is harder for a speaker to reproduce two similar sounds with similar energy and content than to have each side reproduce more of one than then other, ... surely the reproduction is more detailed and efficient, as result sounds should be clearly defined in a mix with out having to increase volume, tweak eqs and other trickery to make'em come apart from each other ... so they become easily percieved.

    I generally produce at very low level and most of the time at night, never had any neighbor complaints (and yes my neighbors are bellow 70 years old lol). This as the consequence of you needing to have a very defined mix, with eq and panning, otherwise the only way to make something stand out it to increase its volume, and that won't fly at 3am...

    It took me some time to get used to it and curb my enthusiams but it's also easier to be tricked if you produce at considerably high levels... than there's the ear fatigue even after very few hours and the Fletcher-munson sensibility curves bla bla bla...

    Z

  8. #8
    Dr. Bento BentoSan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ_Ze_MigL View Post
    I believe it is harder for a speaker to reproduce two similar sounds with similar energy and content than to have each side reproduce more of one than then other, ... surely the reproduction is more detailed and efficient, as result sounds should be clearly defined in a mix with out having to increase volume, tweak eqs and other trickery to make'em come apart from each other ... so they become easily percieved.
    The key to good productions is to have all the sounds sit in their own frequency range without much overlapping - don't play 2 sounds at the same frequency or its going to sound muddy. Cant stress this enough !

    Lets take dnb for example, when artists are layering snares together they wont layer 2 snares that both sit on 300hz - with the second snare thats being layered will have the 300hz peak filtered/EQed.

    This has a huge impact on the quality of a production and results in much tighter sounding mixes.

  9. #9
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    Bento... I'm with ya 100% but what I mean was similar sounds, not the same sound ... so many tracks use open HAts, rides, shakers at the same time ... of course it is unwise to have it all on the space (pan) with same frequen. (eq) and energy (comp/ side-chain)...

    another example of what I meant... if I have to Claps, say a 909 and an RZ-55 I would pan them to different sides (of course with different eq. settings aswell).

    Z

  10. #10

    Default Re: Panning & EDM?

    this thread has been a world of help I sincerely thank you guys for explaining this. every book I read made a big deal of panning but I never understood why, so you guys have my gratitude
    soundcloud.com/hpntk / soundcloud.com/freakstep
    freakstep.com / thefreakbeat.com
    me on beatport / me on djtunes
    Quote Originally Posted by JesterNZDJ
    My solution: Pay some one to whack them so you don't have any competition

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