MP3, WAV or IFF - Can you really hear the difference in a club? - Discuss.

[djadrenal]

Mixing from a wav to an mp3 and vice versa in a club is just fookin' stupid, of course you will notice the difference then

If you were referring to me, yes it was stupid...LOL! That was years ago in my switch from vinyl to digital, it taught me and got me to pay attention though. I then studied up a lot on the subject and that it has brought me to where I am today...purchasing only lossless. I like really clean audio and as I have taught my ears, I am always the one that will be picking out little issues and helping fine tune the audio whenever I'm playing. I always hear and feel if a signal is overloaded now, which is kind of cool. I always try to inform other dj's it in an non accusing, informative manner.

And I will tell you, the crowd or your listeners do notice, whether you think they do or not. You'll see it in their reactions! Bad(or not great) sound may not be all that explainable, but it wears people out.

That was to everyone reading this, btw, not directed at you Jester. By calling me out, you clearly know a thing or two....LOL!

[Eliot Han]

I have noticed some differences in sound from my home setup and when I play out. I have made the switch to .AIFF and I dont think I am going back to .mp3 . I have heard all the arguments before regarding blind testing, but in the end, when you want something to sound a certain way you go for it.

[ZxZDeViLZxZ]

I have always had mixed feelings about a 320mp3 from a proper source and lossless...

Lossless always wins always have always will... As I said I've taken to purchasing aiff files since iTunes handles them well... I just don't know how convinced I am that it's worth it totally... Playing a festival this summer with a full pk sound rig I guess I could do an experiment since playing two different sets. However I'd likely just play from my lossless collection just because I k ow the system is likely best of the best

[djadrenal]

The problem is that your conclusions look exactly the same as conclusions reached by placebo and confirmation bias.

There is an enormous amount of evidence that suggests that any audio testing that is not totally double blind, is completely worthless for drawing conclusions.

For instance, tests have shown that out of two sources, subjects will pick the louder one, and claim that the sound quality is better.

As far as your point about clipping goes, I wouldnt even call someone a DJ who doesnt understand gain staging.

I don't understand what you mean by, "your conclusions". My looking into this all started with that event, playing in a club, noticing something wasn't right between tracks by ear and then later finding that I had mixed between lossless and Mp3. That was the only thing accounting for the difference. It wasn't louder, as I am, and was then, a stickler for checking levels, balancing etc. This all came about for me when I was just changing from vinyl to digital, there was no bias, as everything I'd heard then was that 320 mp3's were fine. I'm keenly aware of the studies you site, but those are done in studio environments, many times with headphones. A decent club system is very different. There is more than just audible sound that affects you in the club.

Again, I'd urge everyone to watch this video and do some digging.

I hear you on the clipping thing, but you would be amazed at how many people that are playing out and are still clipping digital. I see it practically every time I'm out. Guess it's a problem with the proliferation of the ease of this technology!

[soundinmotiondj]

Again, I'd urge everyone to watch this video and do some digging.

While PRODUCING music, there are good reasons to prefer higher sample rates, and additional bit depth.

While RE-PRODUCING (or playing) music, 44.1/16 is more than sufficient for a human being.

Read and Watch this:
http://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml

Then read this:
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

[ZxZDeViLZxZ]

I will add if there was a convent way to take my current library of 13000 256m4a and 320mp3 upload a xml/playlist to a site and it return me results I would likely go about upgrading most my collection... Since I purchase tracks at multiple sites I don't see a non time consuming way of doing this.... Furthermore 90% of the time. The systems being played on will not provide a noticeable difference...... I'm sorry I've mixed lossless to MP3 and have had zero issues.... Yes sometimes the perceived loudness is different but that can vary from track to track this is why I run eqs only at 12 by standard and only exceed as needed.... One thing I wonder though now that we are on topic is maybe the reason I've been noticing a lot lately that when mixing trance I've having to pay way more attention for bass/sub frequencies phasing when I am nailing a mix and it's so in time they are creating a phase on the low.... I'll have to try with some lossless tracks as maybe it's because they are mp3s but it needs more testing on my end

[djadrenal]

While PRODUCING music, there are good reasons to prefer higher sample rates, and additional bit depth.

While RE-PRODUCING (or playing) music, 44.1/16 is more than sufficient for a human being.

Read and Watch this:
http://www.xiph.org/video/vid1.shtml

Then read this:
http://xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html

Never said that it wasn't. This about the difference between 320 MP3(or lower) and lossless, such as AIFF, WAV and the like.

[djadrenal]

One thing I wonder though now that we are on topic is maybe the reason I've been noticing a lot lately that when mixing trance I've having to pay way more attention for bass/sub frequencies phasing when I am nailing a mix and it's so in time they are creating a phase on the low.... I'll have to try with some lossless tracks as maybe it's because they are mp3s but it needs more testing on my end

Are you using keylock? As I said in my previous post that is when I found the sound difference is most noticeable. Especially in a club with a decent sound system. (decent, not even a Funktion One) It's great you mentioned Phase, because that is exactly what it sounds like when I first noticed this. To describe it, it would sound like 2 tracks running slightly out of phase. You know when you have two basses running, which should be additive, but you actually get a decreased bass output? You'll know it when you hear it.

From what I have read in areas such as Native Instruments forum, and from other audio experts, when you are taking a compressed file, running it through a keylock, it accentuates the compression, especially the tails on notes, and that is what causes the "phasing" sound. Do a test, run the same track bought from a reputable site, in MP3 and in Lossless, through a keylock at roughly 4%. I put $1 on that you'll hear the difference. What I noticed most is that the bass will have a "flabbiness" to it, sort of like a bass speaker being overdriven.

Incidentally, that "flabbiness" is very similar in sound to overdriving a 12 inch sub with too much bass while playing guitar. Something I learned 20 years ago when I kept trying to go for a "tough" guitar sound and cranking the bass, because that is where I thought the "tough" sound came from....more bass. Turns out if you back down bass, the sound would tighten up, get "crunchy" and sound far "tougher". Anyway, not to get off on a tangent, but that is what I relate it to because the sound of the MP3 through the keylock at those percentages, or higher, remind me of that sound. The lossless doesn't seem to have the same issues and will sound, to my ear, much like a CD running through a CDJ with keylock.

[ImNoDJ]

I don't understand what you mean by, "your conclusions". My looking into this all started with that event, playing in a club, noticing something wasn't right between tracks by ear and then later finding that I had mixed between lossless and Mp3. That was the only thing accounting for the difference. It wasn't louder, as I am, and was then, a stickler for checking levels, balancing etc. This all came about for me when I was just changing from vinyl to digital, there was no bias, as everything I'd heard then was that 320 mp3's were fine. I'm keenly aware of the studies you site, but those are done in studio environments, many times with headphones. A decent club system is very different. There is more than just audible sound that affects you in the club.

Again, I'd urge everyone to watch this video and do some digging.

I hear you on the clipping thing, but you would be amazed at how many people that are playing out and are still clipping digital. I see it practically every time I'm out. Guess it's a problem with the proliferation of the ease of this technology!

The problem with your 'testing' is that its completely subjective. There is an entire field of study about how our biases affect our sensory perception, and the only acceptable way to defeat it is to use double blind testing.

Until youve done double blind testing, your conclusions are interesting but they dont carry any more weight than you simply saying that you prefer one thing more than the other. Until proven, its entirely possible you are only hearing the difference in your head.

The volume example was simply to illustrate how faulty sensory perception is. People subjectively rate a louder sound as 'better', when it is objectively not better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

[mrdorianjames]

I like all the different perspectives. It's interesting but here is my two cents:

I think a lot of this is about contrast. It's easier to tell differences. The human brain is wired for excellent pattern recognition. We're constantly trying to find patterns in things and when we see something that breaks from our patterns we have made in our heads, It jumps out at us.
I usually mix in 320k mp3 but I can't really tell if 256k mixes in but a 120 would throw a wrench in the gears. The transients would be dull and it would be muffled and quiet.