Im really unhappy with TP and a possible solution?

[J.R]

Im really unhappy with TP and a possible solution?

hi folks,
I have to get this off my chest.

I have to say, I really don’t like the development from TP. if you compare it with ableton for example it’s just so professional and inconsistent.

they change things from update to update which can completely destroy your workflow. they change or remove (like external eq…) instead off adding stuff.

this is one small example:
http://www.native-instruments.com/forum/showthread.php?t=80585

they also like to limit you. there is so much stuff possible with digital technology now they don’t use.

• the effect section is one example, only two racks is a joke. there is no reason for it, they could just copy/paste some code for more. just give the possibility for 4 or even more racks.

• no vst support, this is the only thing which I can understand, because it’s a potential risk for crashing - but even if I like the effects in TP - the effects are always the same (and all your stuff has the same sound signature) and some stuff is lacking. for example: a more advanced delay which can be driven into a feedback loop (aka self feedback). the feedback parameter is to small at the moment for this. sometimes it’s good, sometimes it’s bad - therefore I need a choice I don’t have at the moment.

I don’t think that NI will change that behaviour or development style, but I don’t see an alternatives to TP. and there is a lot of stuff I absolutely love in it too. beatjumps and looping is just great.

so what could be the solution?

TP+ableton would be great, but it’s not possible for me to get them synced really tight with midi clock: I also like to get visual feedback for EQ setting, volume and stuff from my screen. also not possible, because in ableton you can only see one channel at the same time. furthermore ableton and TP on one screen is a bit squeezed (for this task - as a dj mixer - ableton has not the best interface too).

what about TP+reaktor?

midi sync via midi clock is really tight(!) and with reaktor you could build your own small interface for 4 channels + FX, which can be displayed at with TP the same time. this very promising, but in the end I would prefere a “one” program solution. two programs at the same time are just more error prone and it’s a bit clumsy with two separate windows.

I also would like to use the EQs from TP, which I can’t use this way (no EQ in external mode).

so what’s the conclusion.

I play only electronic, from minimal to house to experimental ambient stuff (especially there I could need a lot of fx possibilities)

• just use TP and push it to its limits? the most important thing is to create the right mood. so playing the right track at the right moment is the most important thing anyway.

• make a fiddly combination with a lot of great possibilities (which can be the difference is some situations) from reaktor and TP and trying to get used its clumsy and potential error prone style of working?

I don’t know what to do.

… and the vinyl guys think that digital djing is easier

[BentoSan]

You say that syncing with a midi clock to ableton doesnt work, but then you go on to say when talking about Reaktor that midi clock is really tight - i assure you, midi clock sucks, your better off manually syncing, it doesnt matter what program is syncing.

The nature of midi is just not good enough to effectivly sync material and keep it synced over a long period of time - it gets even worse when you change the tempo !

Try to rely on your monitor as little as possible for feedback - your gear should be giving you most of the feedback you need. That way you dont have to worry about not being able to see all the effects in all of abletons racks at the same time.

[steveboyett]

For me the best solution to NI’s arrogance, hubris, and head-in-the-sand insistence that their sky isn’t falling is to stick with Traktor 2.5.3. It’s stable as hell and the workflow is great. I know it inside-out. It does what I want it to. It has no fx beyond filters but I don’t care. Literally the only thing I miss from Traktor 3x/TPro is having more than two decks. But as I said repeatedly on the NI boards before giving up (they sure seem to invest a lot of energy arguing for their limitations), 2 decks working > 4 decks crashed.

So FWIW, my advice is to go forward into the past by getting hold of an old copy of Traktor, 2.5.3 or 2.6.2

[White_Tiger]

I’m sticking with T3.3 until I’m convinced there is a better option.

What I really wish is that ableton live would have a better track browser and the ability to see two tracks playing at the same time. If this happened I’d switch to Live immediately.

I guess the Serato/Ableton thing might be cool but at the speed that Serato develops that could be a long time off..

Oh yea also…I’m not really sure I want to warp 3k+ songs either

[J.R]

Thanks for your answer, bentosan!

@BentoSan

You say that syncing with a midi clock to ableton doesnt work, but then you go on to say when talking about Reaktor that midi clock is really tight - i assure you, midi clock sucks, your better off manually syncing, it doesnt matter what program is syncing.

I know what it sound like, but if I sync reaktor via midi clock I have almost no drift (only drift at the x : nnn.nx). In ableton the drift is way bigger, about 0.5-2 bpm (tried midi-loopback cable via my RME, virtual midi-cabel, midi-interfaces)

The nature of midi is just not good enough to effectivly sync material and keep it synced over a long period of time - it gets even worse when you change the tempo !

you’re right, but it would only be for effects.

[QUOTE]
Try to rely on your monitor as little as possible for feedback - your gear should be giving you most of the feedback you need. That way you dont have to worry about not being able to see all the effects in all of abletons racks at the same time.[/QUOTE]

I would like to rely on controler feedback, but there are no controller for that out there (beside the lemur). the best solution so far is the BCR with led feedback, but I need more buttons and fader would be nice too. to stack multiple controllers isn’t a good option too - I need a small setup, because in clubs/bars I like to play there isn’t much space.

[mtvstinks]

good reading. I agree with much of this.

My understanding of TP is that is uses reaktor for the effects. Wish they would allow closer integration between the two products.
maybe future releases…?

[Monika.mhz]

Bento hit the nail on the head. Midi sucks. heh. Honestly, your best bet would be to get 2 small LED displays showing 3 digit numbers with an infinite rotary pot below each one. sync each one to the master clock in each program and this way you can adjust BPM on the fly.

Manual sync is going to be your best bet.

[wrong_chris]

i’ve been test driving traktorpro for a little over a month now.

i totally agree with you about how it’s silly that they changed the workflow so much, it doesn’t make any sense to me to be honest. not only would it have been simpler to keep the workflow of traktor3, but they could’ve focused those energies in better ways rather than fixing what wasn’t broke.

There are some things I like about traktorpro, but for the time being I’m still using traktor 3.2

[olafmol]

check out Adion’s djdecks

[EanGolden]

@steveboyett

So FWIW, my advice is to go forward into the past by getting hold of an old copy of Traktor, 2.5.3 or 2.6.2

for true stability- 2.5.3 was a great release! if you just need 2 decks and some great filters (most dj situations) then that is a great version.

[iwaiwa]

TP Updates – Can I vent a bit here?

One wonders if the product manager for TP at NI gets his rocks off on the sheer world power in totally frustrating users with incomplete, buggy, not-well-thought-out updates. This has been going on for years with NI already.

With T3.2, all the DJ had to do was bring in the effects and they were “in sync” and “musical”. Now, there’s so much work involved (IMHO) in getting tasty effects in a reasonable period of time. Also, IMHO, most of the effects in TP sound like tin-pan-noise (not full sonic range). We all know what a delay is supposed to do and sound like – I still cannot get any decent “musical” delays unless I work a couple of minutes to try and find a sweet spot.

I’ve totally have given up on these TP "toy effects”, and now run TP master out into a second laptop with Ableton as an “FX stomp box”. All my “own” chosen VSTs for Bass Enhancement, Distortion, Modulation, Glitch, Delay and Verb.

I agree 100.0000% that Ableton goes about development very professionally, whereas NI with TP is unfortunately a joke. How can they seriously keep changing workflow, pulling out fantastic working functions (like a useable History, orig T32 effects, ability to go (focus) back to an item in Explorer when adding tracks to the Collection), etc?

NI “forget” to put Prelisten through the (Cue Mix/Vol) Monitor system (this one finally fixed in 1.1.1). Also (I haven’t checked 1.1.1 yet) but in 1.02: all tracks PreListened automatically get added to Collection even if we don’t add them ourselves (what a “waste of time” and pain in the butt).

It seems like the NI team thinks that end-users (DJs) are a class below them (and that the “programmers know better&#8221. Gosh – just go out and use the damn product NI and you’ll quickly see what the problems/limitations are.

NI is also super paranoid. If they did an open beta, (versus only inviting fanboys), a lot of these issues would be found out before release.

I don’t know what the politics are at NI, but executive management at NI should not allow their product development teams to get away with their unprofessional, inconsiderate (lack of “common-sense” / non-software industry standards) ways of doing things.

I keep thinking that the NI marketing department loves these issues, because it buys them time to come up with the next new “improved” generation of products instead of fixing what is promised on the box for the current versions.

OK, I feel better now.

Thanks for listening.

iwaiwa

[Fresh]

I too, am getting pretty annoyed with Native Instrument’s software development style. I waited patiently for two months to found out that they fixed some things and broke others (changed the sound of the filters for one). Now I understand that good software design takes time but the way they work makes no sense.

They need to take a tip from DJDecks and concentrate on smaller regular updates that allow you catch things before the final official release. (This method has helped DJDecks to develop and keep a very loyal following.)

Anyway, I am considering going back to T3, even though I like TPro’s work flow alot better. I am also taking another look again at the competition (Virtual DJ, DJDecks and Deckadance).
I just wish these programs had more better midi options.

[steveboyett]

NI has realized that there is a lot more money to be made from bedroom DJs than from pros, if only because there are a buttload more bedroom DJs. If the company were relying for revenue mainly on DJs who use their software for a living, you can bet they’d turn into Masters of Accommodation when the villagers showed up with pitchforks & torches.

I can’t see much evidence that the NI designers & engineers actually use the app. They do nothing but fight with their beta testers (no, I ain’t one) and then ignore their suggestions and hard work come release time. On the NI Traktor forum I’ve written at length about my disappointment with NI and I don’t want to start that old song here. But I think it’s interesting to see that the circle jerk of Happy Traktor Funland seems to be confined to the NI forum. The kinds of comments made above by other DJTT users are routinely pilloried and discounted on the NI Forum.

It honestly makes me sad, because this could be the kind of app that wins the respect of a community that has hitherto been resistant, instead of engendering shrugs and I-told-you-so’s when it implodes at a gig and makes a user look like an organ-grinder’s monkey.

[steveboyett]

for true stability- 2.5.3 was a great release! if you just need 2 decks and some great filters (most dj situations) then that is a great version.

I’ve never had a mishap with T2.5.3 (he said, jinxing himself for all eternity), and I’ve used it for everything from backyard parties to conventions to Vegas clubs. (I should say I’ve never had a mishap that was the app’s fault. I’ve done plenty of dumb things aww by my widdle self.) A lot of other users stuck with 2.6.2; I never made the leap cuz I just didn’t like the GUI all that much, but it’s supposed to be as stable.

I’m not someone who won’t challenge himself and insists that change is bad – but the more I read the NI forums and see the deluge of nonsense paying customers are putting up with ever since T3.0, the happier I am that I’ve stuck with this old warhorse and come to know it like a favorite pair of jeans. (I should add that I did upgrade to v3 and tried to manage the damn thing through v3.2.2 before saying hellwiddit, so at least my comments ain’t purely ignorant.)

[olafmol]

@steveboyett

I can’t see much evidence that the NI designers & engineers actually use the app. They do nothing but fight with their beta testers (no, I ain’t one) and then ignore their suggestions and hard work come release time.

this sounds like classic programmer-driven development. If you start hearing “this cannot be done, this is way too difficult, it’s already in there but a littlebit different, i don’t understand why you would need that?” etc. you know that the programmers are running the show, which is a very bad thing …:eek:

i use Traktor 3, Traktor Pro, but also DJDecks, and i use em all at gigs. To be honest, if DjDecks would get a decent browser like Traktor there would be no need for me to use Traktor, as djdecks gives me much more flexibility and is also very stable. It’s windows only currently though.

[miyuru]

I’m still on 3.3 and glad that I didn’t switch. I tried the Pro demo and I was as pumped as anyone else, but even the fact that cue pause works differently was enough to discourage me from going further haha.

I’ll hop on the Pro train in about 6 months to a year probably.

[MisterMoleyMole]

when you say the cue pause works differently … is that the fact that you dont seem to be able to make the track continue running after using cuepause ?

In traktor 3 it was something like if you wanted to keep it running you dragged the mouse over the track display then released. This no longer works .. i thought it was me but if that a feature that has been removed ?

Cheers
Gav

[Fresh]

@MisterMoleyMole

when you say the cue pause works differently … is that the fact that you dont seem to be able to make the track continue running after using cuepause ?

I think he was referring to the way the cue pause (CUP) triggering was changed by the geniuses at NI. They changed it to work the same way as the CDJ1000. There was a very long thread about this on the DJTT forums.

[BentoSan]

@Fresh

I think he was referring to the way the cue pause (CUP) triggering was changed by the geniuses at NI. They changed it to work the same way as the CDJ1000. There was a very long thread about this on the DJTT forums.

Yeah Traktor took a turn for the worst right there - they had this awesome system in Traktor 3 for transport controls then they decide to replicate stupid friggen CDJ’s without giving an option to replicate their much superiour previous system without a stupid work around.

[de_stilj]

BentoSan -» Are you talking about that the pause/play doesn’t act like a pause/play at all since it go back to the cue point???