Input from Pro Audio specialists to the DJ community…?
I just read the ‘digital vs analogue mixing’ post which was sited as one of the most popular posts in DjTechtools.
I felt compelled to reply and made quite an extensive response which some may and some may not agree with.
However it made me consider another global aspect that I think Ean and others at DJTechtools might consider.
As I said in the post - I am a music producer and have been concentrating on building my studio and focussing on researching pro audio technology as it exists in the modern recording studio. Reading up a lot on digital audio, sample rates, analogue equiptment and the analogue vs digital debate in recording studios. I started out DJing about 10 years ago using 1200s. I have taken a break whilst focussing on production and come back to it in the digital format.
After being embroiled in the pro audio sphere for a while and returning to the DJ market - I cant help but feel there is a lot that could be gained from having access of some audio professionals in a reviewer or consultant basis.
DJ Techtools is a great spot - great bunch of guys - great info and community on DJ matters. However - as much as you guys know about DJ products and techniques - there are a whole set of higher levels of audio understanding and knowledge in the Pro Audio field. This is because it is huge business for pro recording studios - it is essential for them to have the best quality sound possible. I think its somewhat of a shame that so much money gets spent in this area - only to have many DJs not being exposed to correct info and therefore degrading this money and effort - often through no fault of their own…or purchasing equipment that if they had the right knowledge they would not buy…
I have noticed that DJ goods manufacturers in their marketing do appear to spread or subtly manipulate concepts that are taken on board by the DJ community. I felt this apparent in the ‘analogue vs digital mixing’ thread.
However - this isnt completely sinister. Most DJ gear is very much fit for purpose usable and I dont want to make DJs feel bad about using $200 interfaces and mp3s.
However for those DJs who take things really seriously and have some extra budget - there are definitely things to be learned from the Pro Audio community. The Pro Audio community have serious big budgets for research into digital and analogue audio - as they are the guys where it starts from. The best quality audio is their business.
I think it would empower DJs around here to have a really clear understanding about the basics of digital audio and how it differs from analogue, plus a lot of other info that could de-bunk some of the marketing guff that I read from manufacturers. I also think this is important because some may argue that the quality of music (in terms of sound quality) is reducing because of cheap tools available and lack of education about how to use them. For example - digital audio should NEVER be clipped and limiters should generally be avoided if you want to preserve the quality of your music.
The latter part of the Analogue vs Digital mixing thread indicated some important ideas that dont often get talked about in the DJ community - the comments from Paul Hughes and George Peterson.
I wonder - would it be possible to have some contributors from the Pro Audio engineer field make comments and advise the DJ arena? I think people would learn a lot…and some people who wanted to could seriously improve the quality of their work…
That would be really interesting actually! Audio leveling and the whole clipping thing is one thing which I think can really separate a good quality live mix and a crap one. I try my best just through playing around, but it would be really good to have a pro opinion on that kinda thing just to get some tips in that sphere.
@pier - i agree, since i don’t fully understand half of those things!
Indeed, there is a mobile DJ who is a regular at my school for the crappy socials we have (either when i’m busy, can’t be arsed to DJ, or don’t organise them!) and he is actually not too bad at mixing his music - but everything blasts into the red, and he shouts into this horrible tinny, distorted, and very loud mic - which ruins everything for me. Shame really!
I’d definitely be interested in finding out more, as I’ve read about how limiters and suchlike work but I don’t really understand their effects, especially with regard to audio quality. Plus the budding audiophile in me would like to know how DJing links up with what comes out of the speakers
I can imagine why some people used to do it on certain mixers back in the day
Yeah my shitty behringer DJM 800 rip off (don’t get one by the way) tells me off for even thinking about going into the red - if it even just clips a teeny weeny bit it yells at me in really loud white noise! Silly thing..
to the best of my knowledge anyone interested in writing articles for djtechtools is welcome to contact them and there is that possibility.
i don’t think there is some conspiracy at the legions of djtechtools that calls for holding its forum masses in darkness, if you have issues with the article, use the comments or take them to point here.
I see so many places that take sound quality for granted. dj’s running things in the red all the time and almost to the point they are looking for that clip lights on the amp to be on all the time… for some of these guys it’s like a right of passage
Please!!!.
All the places where I have to provide everything I run through a 15band dbx eq and take the time to listen to the room acoustics before the crowd shows up… Then run through a dbx compressor to level out the mix. and smooth off the peaks. compressors / limiters can be invaluable tools IF USED PROPERLY…
Bass should be punchy, clean, undistorted… Highs should be crisp, clean and not honky. and mids should not sound muddy
hate to say it im anal when it comes to sound quality… its the first thing I notice when I step into a club…
There is nothing worse then the sound 10,000 watts pushing ten 18" subs and all bottoming out and slapping the coil off the back of the magnet
OK, what about pioneer mixers that have liek 4 bars of red? Should i not be going to 3 and try to keep green the whole way through? I’m not noticing any clipping unless im consistently at top… Rane are easier to read imo
not sure you got the point of what Im trying to say here…but the type of guys who Im suggesting - the Bob Katz and Dan Lavrys of this world - are not likely to organically get in touch with DJTechtools without being asked…
If its a digital mixer - whilst it probably has high headroom - I would still avoid hitting the top bar. You are likely ok to be peaking in the top 3 without any adverse affects - and could probably go higher if it is a well designed Pioneer. The point is that there is no point doing that with with digital - dont drive it for volume - use the power amp for that. Keep the meters at sensible levels at all times for the sake of audio quality.
In high quality analogue mixers - you could drive the levels to achieve a pleasing warmth and saturation. However - it only degrades the signal in a negative way on digital devices.
If you are mixing ITB - just NEVER drive the audio level above 0db. Whilst software makers claim high headroom - once the digital signal goes to the soundcard D/A converter - it will be clipped because the converter cannot translate the signal that is above 0db. This induces an unpleasant digital distortion and harshness in the high frequencies. Also the bass frequencies will be taken away. So if you are using mp3 and clipping your mixes - the quality is going to be drastically lower than it could be. The advantage of digital is that it can be clean and precise. However if you drive it you only go downhill. Conversely with analogue it is warm - but sometimes noisey and you can get benefits from driving it. They are completely different technologies than need to be approached in almost opposite ways…
OR…
Just buy a top quality soundcard. (proven track record and industry standard)
Buy a great laptop strictly for DJing.
Buy the great DJ software. (proven track record and industry standard)
Only use high quality music formats.
Read the manuals on how to use said card and software in the most professional way (if your software is clipping you arent using it correctly).
Just dont clip.
Do all that and your sweet, surely ?
I understand the point of the thread, certainly not having a dig. But you can skip all the lessons if you just do everything right in the first place.
Follow all the good advice that is free within the Manual of whatever you buy.
See, to DJ I don’t think that you need to really know all the details. It doesn’t make a difference for us how AD/DA converters interact. Once you get toward production I agree whole heartedly, but I don’t think that’s the main objective of this forum, and there are tons of others very well suited to that kind of information.
I don’t think we should really get ahead of ourselves and remember that we play other peoples music for people to be entertained. You need to know how your gear works and how to work a basic mixing board, really. Clipped isn’t exactly a detailed pro-audio discussion.
Maybe getting more involved in how frequencies interact, or how sounds change people’s attitude, but clipping is a pretty simple discussion in my mind.
“It makes it sound like shit, don’t do it.”
Essentially, I’m with Karlos. But I like to talk a lot.
no no mate, ddm750. It doesnt even light up anymore, so I can’t see when it’s clipping! only had it a month too… It essentially splits my audio into 4 channels, and provides some EQ - and that’s essentially what i use it for!
its really not that important for djs. believe me i know a lot about all this stuff, and while it is a very interesting field of study, it really doesn’t matter that much for the live dj. first of all a lot of mix engineers and producers get pretty obsessive about this stuff anyway, more than they need to be.
theres a lot of mysticism in studio, because recording is an art not a science, and most engineers don’t understand the principles. for example many engineers will swear by analog mixing and tape, when another engineer might get much better results with cubase and a bunch of free plugins. in reality, the amazing analog sound they are talking about is more based on their workflow familiarity with the analog equipment, and not any intrinsic advantage.
second, most songs nowadays include 32 to 64 separate tracks. when you are mixing a song from so many tracks, any little extra bit of clarity on each track will make a big difference. this is not really the case with a dj mixing two songs in a club.
third, it’s a lot harder to hear mix deficiencies on a banging club system than on a high quality stereo or headphones. the music is so loud and the people are having so much fun that they simply don’t care.
just don’t go into the red and don’t abuse your limiter and you’ll be fine.
I’m pretty anal about my audio, and I can honestly say that working in the digital realm (production and djing), has made a huge improvement in my engineering and mixing skills. --Precisely because it is unforgiving, I’ve been forced to be much more careful and exacting. I 'd like to add that given a DAW or audio program that does it’s internal processing at a high bit depth (most all of them nowadays), you can get away with a lot of redlining in the internal chain without clipping the signal, though you’ve still gotta get that level below 0dB for the final output.
But to respond to the initial post: I think that it’s important to consider that the issue with digital djs who sound bad consistently is not that they don’t understand a concept or have misinformation. It’s that they don’t care. They don’t have the ears to recognize a problem. If a dj doesn’t recognize a problem, no amount of education on DA converters is going to help them mix better.
I guess I’m just saying this because I believe the people who hear deficiencies and want to step up their sound seek out the info they need and use it. I don’t think djs get misinformation which they then put to use, make a crappy sound, and say “wow, that sounds great”, unless there’s really no hope for them anyway.
Advice is always good, thou how “serious” one thinks they take music vs. others should be kept within inner thought.. music is the common ground here, one respected enough for us to put our petty differences & egos aside for a moment to read up on and share some ideas. No One knows all.. but the more people bring to the table the more food for thought.
they look so sweet..