ITCH vs Scratch Live, Controller's vs CDJ's.

DJ Software & Apps Serato
1

ITCH vs Scratch Live, Controller’s vs CDJ’s.

So. This is what I’ve come down to.

With the debut of the NS6 and DDJ-S1 at NAMM, those two would be my controllers of choice. Otherwise, going with a CDJ setup.

OPTIONS: (With Pictures!)

(Just googled the images to give the idea of what I’m talking about)

Numark NS6:

Pioneer DDJ-S1:

Pioneer CDJ-400 Setup: (Note: Not sold on the DJM400, but it’s a solid image idea)

CDJ-350 Setup: (And really, I don’t think I could handle the white version lol) I do however like the DJM-350 with this setup. The USB recording feature is something I KNOW I would use.

I’ve also thought about the CDJ-850’s, but then I’d really be pushing what I want for cost. In getting a CDJ setup, I’d want to add a DVS (SSL) down the road, and so feel I’d probably be more than happy with the 400 or 350’s.

THOUGHTS:

I’ve long preferred Serato products over Traktor, and it really just comes down to personal preference. I respect Traktor and all that it can do, but I just can’t get over the ugly and (personally) un-intuitive layout, and basically the NEED to sync (in my personal opinion).

So go with the basic CDJ’s and a mixer, and get SSL down the road. Or get a controller that utilizes ITCH and go with that. Either way it’s a very similar setup.

It seems to me like ITCH is somewhat of the “redheaded step-child” (unrelated note: my wife hates that term because she’s a redhead, so I like to use it as often as possible) of Scratch Live at the moment. It’s about a year behind in updates, or so it seems. So is jumping on ITCH always going to be so drastically behind?

I’ve always been a “power-user” so to speak. I want the most functionality out of what I purchase. I have the concepts down, and just lacking the equipment to devote the time and gain the technical knowledge. Out of my crew, I’m the “Dubstep” go-to guy. I follow the shit like heroin. So I can’t wait to drop the money on gear soon.

I’m actually really happy that these controllers came out. I really liked the S4, but my hesitation was with Traktor itself. And this solves this issue for me. I can stick with a Serato product and honestly be happier with it. And I also have the possibility of just learning on CDJ’s and not using a DVS, which is something I’m really not opposed to.

I just think a DVS (at least in the future) will be easier for file management since I purchase all of my music as Mp3’s anyhow. (Less that I dislike CD’s, and more about just being lazy about burning them).

COST/BUDGET:

Cost not being a huge issue, as these are all options that pretty much fall into my sub 2k budget plan at the moment. (Note: I don’t plan on spending over 2k in my initial go, but I know I want something that I can transfer well over to a professional environment).

I currently DO NOT own a laptop. But as I am going back to school part-time (while maintaining full time work) I plan on picking up a laptop in the near future. So this is something I need OUTSIDE of DJing as well, and so it’s in the plans for the near future. So I WILL have a laptop soon, even though I don’t have one just at the moment. And this cost is NOT being considered into my “DJing” expenses, as I’ve convinced the wife that I need one for schoolwork.

MORE THOUGHTS:

So, if choosing between controllers, it’s a tough call IMO. My biggest thing would be having experience on Pioneer products, because they are honestly what are installed at clubs. Given the DDJ-S1 isn’t the same as a CDJ, but it’s as damned close as you can get.

Both controllers use Serato ITCH. Both are honestly very similar in design. I like the cue point control location on the Numark Unit better, but that’s not enough to sell me on it. Four deck control is something that’s honestly more than I need. I could see using 2 decks, MAYBE 3 once I start getting in practice and would help with speed mixing, but that would be in the deeper future.

I guess part of it will come down to Jog Wheel feel, and just how both feel in comparison.

As far as CDJ’s are concerned, I really do like the CDJ-400’s a lot. If I can still get them, I’d hop on these over the 350’s in a heartbeat I think. I just feel like they are more intuitive, and having played with both jog’s, I like the 400’s better.

But honestly, I see myself using a DVS in the future, and not just pure CD’s, and so it almost seems intuitive to just get a controller instead of a CDJ. Just cost wise alone, it’s a wiser investment (even though the cost is quite similar in the end). I can’t afford 900’s or 2000’s, and so I’m going with a “smaller” product no-matter which way I look at it.

QUESTIONS:

So for folks who have experience using ITCH and SSL, which would you recommend? Because that’s what it really comes down to. All of these above products are very similar, and I am trying to make the decision.

Also, in terms of laptops, is the anti-glare on the Macbook Pro’s really something I NEED? Or is the regular screen just fine. I don’t plan on being a superstar anytime soon, but I just worry about not being able to see shit if there are some wild lights going around. I don’t have any experience with computers in odd lighting environments, so any input on this would be quite helpful. (Note I’m still not sold on a Macbook, but this would be another thing that I would add to the list of wanting one)

Stepping into the game now, if you had no equipment, would you go a CDJ or Controller route yourself… and why?

Thank you for reading through this. I know I’ve made a couple similar posts over the past couple of months, but budget plans had changed. (I basically made the decision to spend the 1k+ I had saved on going to Ultra, and in so doing, put off making the gear purchase for a bit). (And sorry if you’ve seen this cross-posted. Posted basically the same thing on DJForums but also wanted the input from you guys for many different reasons)

2

the only thing i could help you on is the anti glare on the macbook.

mine doesnt have it and its a bitch to use it outside (ive played some gigs during teh day outside and either had to get covered or cast a shadow on it to see what was going on). so its prob worth it especially if youre using it for 2 purposes. – i loved typing papers outside when i was in school.

also if my opinion matters, if you go with cdjs, go with the 400s. i love the red ring that goes round. :slight_smile:

3

kind of topic here, but the need for sync wasn’t really an issue until traktor pro.

it’s one of the reasons i’ve stuck with traktor 3, because t3 is a bit more open to different approaches to using the software.

for instance and this is a BIG dealbreaker for me with the software:
i can find the bpm of a track in Traktor 3 just be setting a loop and manually adjusting the bpm. Because when i manually adjust the bpm of a track the loop size will increase and decrease as i increase or decrease the bpm - so i can get an accurate bpm by utilizing the visual of a loop. for some reason they removed that functionality from traktor pro… it’s such a handy thing, i hope they put it back into traktor pro 2.

i don’t know if that makes sense, it’s kind of hard to explain - i assume it wasn’t an intentional use otherwise they would’ve included it in traktor pro. i hardly ever have to set beatgrids in T3 because of that functionality, it’s much faster than setting beatgrids too.

4

You should stay with ssl , itch is more a stepchild of traktor IMO. For DVS I think nothing beats ssl and for controller nothing beats traktor pro. I use the 2 a lot it only depends if the club has turntables or not. The difference between controllers and cdj is, at least for me, not worth it. The best purchase I made is the xone 4d it controls perfect traktor and now with the ssl 2.1 you can effectively map to serato. If there is space in the booth I am playing I am taking with me so if turntables are broken I use traktor.
So if you have any sl dongle keep it, also I own a vci100 wich works beauty with traktor.The xone 4d I got it for 2000 from a direct allen&heat seller.
I dislike the NI ways of handling customers and updates and the gui is far from natural workflow besides a weird file management. 5 years ago I purchase the sl1 and I am even surprised I am using it every week, with nice software upgrades for free.
Cheers

5

And about the glare issue no problem on nighclub environment

6
  • Those mixers suck in the CDJ setups. I’d honestly buy a behringer over them.
  • Those CDJs aren’t amazing based on my preferences, though some people love the 400s.
  • I hate the pioneer itch controller with a passion…it’s also insanely overpriced.
  • There are much better options even in the same vein as your two basic options. Newest does not always mean best. I’d pick a xone:dx or vci-300 over the itch controllers you listed, though the numark looks interesting. For CDJs, I’m not sure what I’d do, but I’d probably try to stretch for the 850s if I could.
  • Those controllers won’t be available for a while.
  • The normal glossy Macbook Pro screen is fine. Don’t make the mistake of thinking it looks like a mirror like every glossy PC screen I’ve ever seen…Apple knows what they’re doing.
  • Why are you limiting yourself to Itch and SSL? What about Traktor? Or just CDJs? You don’t need SSL to use CD players.

And in general:

  • I really can’t see spending Pioneer prices to use with SSL. Seems pointless to me, though obviously “everyone” does it.
  • I have very strong opinions that obviously don’t mesh with everyone. Take everything I say with a grain of salt.
  • I’m serious about the pioneer mixers sucking…I really would buy a Behringer over them for anything but a club install; and I would put a lot of mixers before Pio’s club mixers on my wish list.
7

Agreed on the Pio mixers. Pioneer mixers are expensive and mediocre.

If you want a cheap two-channel option get a Xone 22 or something. Don’t be concerned about “learning” Pioneer mixers, analog mixers are pretty much all the same. If you can use one, you can use any.

8

I’m glad to hear the glossy screens don’t make a huge difference. It’s the difference between a few hundred dollars (being as I can pick one up in store in NH -no sales tax- with the glossy screen, and would have to have the anti-glare screen version shipped to my home in MA and have to pay sales tax on-top of the anti-glare price). The also don’t make the anti-glare in a 13", which is all I really feel that I need. So we’ll see where I end up with a laptop.

Yeah I’ve been basically looking at the Ecler Nuo 2.0 and the Xone 22 as far as two channel mixers are concerned. The Behringer products have also really caught my eye, and the DJX-900 really looks like a quality piece of kit. I’m very interested to see where they are going. Believe you me, I’m not sold on the Pioneer mixers by any means. It just wasn’t the main topic above, and so I didn’t go into as much detail as I probably should have. The main meat and potatoes of what I really wanted to hit on here are/were the players themselves.

I’d like to use a DVS in the future because my music collection is on Mp3’s, and I feel that it’s a more intuitive step than having to burn things to CD’s. I don’t want TT’s because as far as mobility goes, it’s not really an option (I don’t plan on going all over the world with my setup, but to easily bring to a friend’s place or house parties, that’s what I would be going for). Burning and just using CD’s is a completely viable option however.

After much inner debate, talking with friends, and just going over it a million times, downloading a cracked version to test it, trying the LE version, I can honestly say I don’t find Traktor to be for me. And howevermuch people want to knock me for trying without buying, I’m very very glad that I did. I like the FX. I like the syncing honestly. But I also have had a lot of experience with SSL, and it just feels 100% more intuitive. And that’s just how it is really, everyone has their own opinion when it comes to software.

I bought and own Ableton as well, and I originally got it because I was interested in using it as a DJing tool, and it was a nice feature as a DAW. Now I find the workflow being GREAT as a DAW, but I don’t think it jives with me as far as DJing is concerned. But the bridge interests me a lot, and while I know you can wire Traktor to it, I’ve already been over my issues with that to a certain degree. So that’s another aspect I feel works quite well with either piece of software.

Right now even though I’m still basking in the glory that is “new products” I still think the CDJ setup may be the one to go for. If I can get a great deal on CDJ-400’s, I’ll probably go with them. I don’t NEED a DVS at the moment, and really feel like I should learn the basics of beatmatching by ear before anything else. (Yes, I’m one of those guys that believes any DJ worth their weight SHOULD be able to beatmatch by ear, or at least have done it at some point. Choosing to sync should be something that you move on toward, because I’ve seen so many messy transitions and if something goes wrong? Beatmatching is a required skill, even though it’s not one you HAVE to use all the time).

Right now I’m gathering that more people like SSL than ITCH, and I know here in particular has a fairly strong following of Traktor users. Hell, the reason I first came to the website was because I wanted to know more about the VCI-100 and Traktor. ITCH does seem to take a backseat to ITCH, and having CDJ’s doesn’t seem like a bad move.

Slip mode on the 900’s and DDJ-S1 is compelling however. And it’s something the lesser CDJ’s don’t have.

Ugh. It’s not simple.

Right now I’m looking at the DDJ-S1, or going with a straight CDJ setup. I really want to see some more info on the NS6, and so I’ll be waiting patiently for that. Price isn’t as much of an issue as having the features I want. It’s like buying a car really (and hell, I’ve bought cars for LESS than I’m planning on buying my DJing equipment). I’m someone who will buy the used car with all the features I want, rather than the more economical “smarter” new car.

Does anyone know when the information it ITCH 2.0 will be released?

9

My own take on this: but I think CDJs are very backwards-looking technology. Sure, you can do all the basics on them, but they don’t really sit well with any of the newer tech. You can use them nicely with DVS setups, but they’re very expensive and bulky for what they offer in terms of DVS.

I don’t think CDJs are worth the money, and haven’t been since we started seeing good Traktor and Itch controllers.

You can easily learn all the basics using a MIDI deck with jogwheels (as long as they’re touch sensitive). The new Pioneer ones might be a good option, as would cheaper options. Beatmatching manually doesn’t require CDJs.

10

BigC,

Whats up man. I have an NS7 and had a VCI-300 till the other day. I’ve used Itch for a while, but after getting the S4 and seeing that Traktor is getting colored waveforms soon, I’m now a happy S4 user. Either way, back to Itch. I would get the CDJ’s and an SSL box.

Yes, Itch is the stepchild to SSL or so it feels that way. The NS7 is a sweet piece of gear and I’m sure the NS6 will follow suit. The folks I know that use the V7’s all love them…so I’m sure the NS6 will be a hit. In my opinion it tops the S1 at first glance. Itch is not bad, it’s VERY intuitive and because it is streamlined, it’s a fun to use and has MUCH more of a “hands on fee” to it. The downside is that your stuck using one of it’s controllers. It also seems that development has been rough for Serato because each update must be developed for 5-7 different controllers. I would recommend the CDJ, SSL set up because you are not married to that one piece of gear. You could easily play on a friends set up with just your sound card and laptop. You can upgrade your mixer or CDJ’s down the road. I know more folks that use SSL than Itch and I’ve seen many clubs where a TTM-57 is the house mixer and you can just plug in (although most of these are mainly hip hop clubs). This is the main reason I’m sticking with Traktor. The flexibility of taking an S4, or an X1 or just a sound card. I would hate to have to carry an NS6 EVERY time I wanted to play music. The biggest drawback I’m seeing is that Itch’s 1-1 mapping style restricts future feature implementation on current controllers without having to add new hardware or something else creative that has not been done yet. The buttons on the controllers are already taken and marked. Remapping would go against their 1-1 philosophy

If your plans are to play at house parties, or small lounges that require you to take your own gear. Then the NS6 or DDJ-S1 are a great one stop shop, plug in a play. Itch does have enough features to rock some really good sets. I would say you can do more on the current version of Itch than you can on two CDJ’s and a two channel mixer. Also Serato has announced The Bridge is coming in 2011. The mods on the Serato forum mentioned that the last few months the development team has been working on pushing out the new controllers. Now that they are out….I would assume the priority goes back to releasing 2.0 asap.

However if you plan on doing more than the above, I would strongly consider the CDJ set up and find an SL-1 box. I think that’s the route your leaning towards.

11

A few responses.

I honestly think that mixer choice is probably the most important decision. For me the only controller’s mixer section that I’ve felt that comes anywhere close to feeling right is the xone:dx. It feels better than a lot of real mixers and makes every other controller I’ve felt feel like a toy…including the Vestax ones for some reason (I normally love vestax mixers). I’m not sure that anything will make me give up having a mixer. The VCM-600 was close, but it was always an expensive compromise.

Itch vs. SSL vs. Traktor vs. whatever is just a preference thing. Frankly, I don’t fault you for pirating Traktor before you boy it as an extended demo. 30 minute limits are annoying, more so than 30-day limits and almost as much as crippled versions. I have bought and sold SSL at a loss twice. The idea of it is amazing to me, but in the end…it just doesn’t jive with what I do. Traktor didn’t either until a few months ago…now I’m wondering if I’ll ever do a full DJ set in Live or actually start on working live production stuff into my set. My advice: try everything, even if it means limited versions, shady methods, or bugging the crap out of GC employees while you try to spin a set on demo equipment…it’s not the worst thing that happened to them at work that day, I promise.

If you do decide to go the CD route, there’s nothing wrong with just burning CDs or using a USB key if you can. I have to disagree with will (whom I greatly respect) about CDs. It is a step backwards in some senses ( looping (anything), quantization (Traktor, Torq, Live), remix capabilities(Live) ). But in the end, all DJs do is play other people’s music in a (hopefully) unique, creative, and entertaining way. Whatever tools you use, use. I think that it’s a LOT easier to learn how to be really good on CDs or Vinyl just because there’s less you can do to truly mangle a good song, though it’s obviously not universal (will is an example).

In addition, I find it easier to stand there and wait for a track to play out the way I want with CDJs in front of me than with a laptop in front of me. It’s a personal problem, and it’s responsible for me leaning a bit away from Ableton recently. If you find yourself constantly needing things to do while mixing on a computer or ruining tracks with cue points and effects, CDs might be the answer at least for a while.

While you’re in that $~500 price range, however…if you can, give the Reloop RMP-3 a play. I’ve heard some really good things about it from at least one person I trust. It seems to be an almost-built-as-well-knock-off CDJ-1000 that can control Traktor if you choose for it to, does some effects, and apparently handles in a class close to top-end Pioneer decks of not too long ago…for $500.

I’m not advocating buying them blind, but they might be worth looking into. I’m probably going to pick one up in a few weeks because I kind of want to learn to scratch. I’m also just really curious. The guy who recommended them to me is very good, and we tend to agree on equipment a good bit of the time with obvious concessions because we spin very different genres.

Sorry about the wall of text…I can’t sleep.

12

Thanks for the reply’s guys. It sounds like honestly I should probably just lean down the path of CDJ’s, even though it is not the “step forward” that would be nice. It’s older technology that’s still powerful.

I could see myself easily getting distracted by FX and looping, and all sorts of toys with mixing. One of the reasons why I couldn’t deal with Ableton as a DJing interface, because I constantly get side-tracked with various things, and don’t end up doing the proper prep with a set.

Keeping it simple, two TT’s and a mixer, and then adding additional control/effects seems like the way to go.

And all signs point to SSL over ITCH, and so that puts me back in the realm of CDJ’s instead of controllers.

Who knows, maybe in time once I feel comfortable with the basics, then I may make a move onto Traktor or the like. But for now, I really feel like I need to learn how to walk. I understand the concept, but it’s something I can’t do WELL yet. I mean hell, my mixing abilities are fast cuts at the moment, and that’s unacceptable to me.

Really going to give the price tag on the CDJ-850’s another go.

13

What dont u like about traktor? And u dont HAVE to sync at all. I dont use sync unless im doing crazy 4 deck mixing or something.But its ur choice. The S1 has nothing on the ns6. Slip mode is cool, but if u wanna do that, load the same track on other deck, sync them and then mess around with it and fade back into the original track playing. Its not hard. The only reason someone would buy the s1 is cuz its a pioneer, nothing more nothing less. IMO cdj’s are cool but im a digital guy i love controllers and everything involved in them. And u dont NEED TT’s to LEARN how to mix. I dont see why ppl say that, its not a matter of life and death, u can learn on controllers just fine.

14

I guess my dislike of CDJs is for several reasons. Firstly, because feature-for-feature they are vastly more expensive than controller setups. I ran the numbers (for NZ) last night, and to get a very basic CDJ setup in New Zealand you’re looking at $3500+ (NZ dollars). By comparison, top-end controllers are running for $1500.

The other big thing to consider is that CDJ/mixer setups aren’t portable, and can’t be taken to clubs/festivals easily. In theory venues have their own: in practice these are usually a combination of broken, crappy or absent.

15

numark rep told me at namm that the ns6 wont be out till june.

serato rep confirmed the bridge and video sl as well as “something huge for itch users” this year.

pioneer rep told me the S1 will be in stores middle of feb.

hope that helps you decide

16

I started on vinyl, had SSL and when the NS7 came out had that as well, and played on the VCI300. I currently own the Xone DX and recommend it hard. Although half the DX owns will bitch about bugs and software issues, I have either been fortunate or never had any issues aside from pioneering the DX software when it was first released, but that was a given.

The NS7 was tight but definitely not portable for dropping into a random dj booth, so my preference for someone on a budget would be a VCI300 as you can easily set it up atop any turntable or cdj if needed.

The Xone on the other hand can do the same. I also have a hard top cover to protect the faders and knobs, which conveniently happens to fit perfectly over the record pin on a turntable, and also clears a cdj’s buttons and all nicely as well. Topping it off with 4 deck mixing, 2 effect banks and looping control the only thing Im really missing now is the wireless smart pad for my macbook. The only time I ever touch the computer is to either search a song or click somewhere on the screen. For 1500 you have whats listed above, and I also map it for ableton and logic when playing with my production software…and when ITCH 2.0 comes out, soon enough, Im sure that will have the bridge and more effects… or 1500 for a used setup of cdjs and 2 channel mixer(and maybe a coffin if lucky) @50lbs of carrying weight?? Not for me anymore..

As well as swapping DJs its easier IMO having my own controller i plug into a channel on the main mixer and Im off and going…and yeah yeah theres the SL4 with 2 usb hubs or the rane 58 or whatever thats makes swapping easier but what club is running out to buy more equipment to make the DJ swap easier??

As far as the NS6, the 4 deck mixing will be cool, but still not portable enough to take into a club and set up, unless your the resident DJ who opens and closes the night.

Its opinion really, and some will say you need to pay your dues learning to beat match and use turntable and all this crap, but the technology really takes out the learning curve, via beatgrids and all the xtra bpm feedback.

Traktor is cool, I just have to much time spent already in serato cue’ing music, beat gridding and stored info that I would have to start over if i switched.

17

You’re right. But having traveled with CDJs and Turntables, they are portable. It’s a pain in the butt, but it is doable…possibly not as practical at a festival, and get insurance, but it’s doable.

Also, the cost thing is the reason why I use Traktor at all. It would be more of a PITA, but I’d prefer CDJs. I can’t afford the upgrade. That’s why I used CDJs and (to less of an extent) SSL until I switched entirely to Live…now, switching back, I can’t afford the CDJs I want and Traktor is the next best thing. As far as actual capabilities, CDJs aren’t missing but one or two features, and Traktor is almost as reliable.

18

I’ve decided to go with CDJ’s. Straight up, no DVS involved for the time being.

As I’m not able to make the outright purchase right away, I spent today running around getting burnable CD’s and a label making kit. I highly expect the next couple weeks to be full of making a quality and organized CD collection.

What it comes down to now is how exactly I want to organize my collection. I’m going to do some more research tonight into methods other folks have used successfully. I really like the idea of 1:1 song to CD (and any remixs of a given song). It seems like the most logistically simple way to go about organizing. But as I said, looking into other options.

I like turntables, but CD’s are a form of media I can manipulate. And while wanting to keep things as “simple” as possible, this seems like the best road to walk down. It’s kind of a hybrid between traditional and digital, and I like that. I mean, it’s what many many people use currently, and so there’s got to be something to be said for it.

(Also posted the above on the DJForums post I have going).

I know in this digital age it might seem like a step backwards to not fully embrace the magic that is some digital options out there. But I think I was to build a foundation before I start getting even more technical. And that’s what it comes down to.

With a CDJ setup, I can always add a DVS and computer into the mix LATER. And I don’t HAVE to have one. It gives me the most modularity and available options. I really like some of the controllerism stuff and extra control. I can really see myself incorporating LIVE into my sets into the future. But I’m not there yet.

It’s not super cost friendly, but I’m pretty sure I can get away with it for cheaper than you might expect.

It’s funny. I first went to college for Architecture. I had done a semester internship at an architecture firm in high school. I was all about it. And then we had to draw, and I hate drawing. The internship at the actual firm was 100% computer aided design. I asked the program director about it, and they explained it as “learning to walk before you can run” so to speak. If I can draw it by hand, then I can definitely do it on a computer. I transferred out of the program, but that lesson stuck with me. And I think it’s totally applicable here.