when watching the following video phrasing sounds ‘‘easy’’.
But when I’m phrasing techno music (repetitive ‘‘tool’’ techno) things aren’t so easy! There are no/not that obvious changes in the music… Am I overthinking this whole phrasing thing and should I be ok as long as I drop the ‘‘one’’ of track B on the ‘‘one’’ of track A?
Also, a phrase in Trance music apparently is 4 bars, I’ve learned that in Techno a phrase is 8 bars. Is this correct?
Incorrect on preset assumptions… However if you can’t audible hear the different read some musical theory books… A normal phrase is 32 changes happen on 64 big changes at 128… Normally every 32 once song is going however you will find with some where a lead or pad will persist a full 64bars… Bass is almost always a 16
If you listen to a track that will say is 7minutes long and 132bpm you will have the first 32 covered in roughly 14-15 seconds and then at 64 which is 30s roughly you will hear a major change instead of subtle … This is very standard for all electronic music I’ve encountered but pay attention you’ll hear it and eventually it will be second nature to pick up and listen and go oh here one comes and drop the beat… Things get complicated with say 5minute tracks where the most changes are accelerated to be on a 16/32 instead of a 32/64
Phrasing - Generally it’s 4 groups of 4 beats. So 1-2-3-4, 2-2-3-4, 3-2-3-4, 4-2-3-4. These can be combined into a phrase group. In modern music, that generally is 4 phrases (your verse or chorus or intro or outro). (some of this terminology isn’t “official” this is just how I define it)
When figuring out “phrasing” figure out how many 4 bar phrases make up your “phrase group.” Try listening to a few songs… you’ll figure out your phrases and phrase groups pretty quickly. Just keep counting your groups of 4.
Genres have different rules, most of the time. But rules are meant to be broken. Different artists break the rules in different ways. For example, Pitbull uses 2 four bar phrases on occasion to break up his songs.
Cut 20 phrases out of different minimal tracks. Spread them across an ableton session.
Get a non DJ to hit buttons on a launchpad when they want to.
It still sounds completely like a cohesive minimal set lols. Dont get me wrong, I quite like minimal but phrasing isnt one of its defining features. Mostly because there isnt a lot of harmonic information in it to phrase.
As for trance/techno? Yeah, phrasing is what sorts the hacks from the giants. And you can use it to tell a story much more than in minimal.
When did that become a mistake people make? I mean, yeah…the 5th measure of a phrase usually has something that signfies it, but it’s not enough to call 4 bars a phrase. Every measure has an obvious downbeat, but that doesn’t mean we’re talking about 1-bar phrases.
It’s a feel thing…
Almost everything in dance music is 8-bar phrases…occasionally they’ll be a 1-2 bar turnaround at the end of the breakdown. Minimal is only substantially different, in my experience, because occasionally 2 or 3 phrases in a row will be identical, but if each measure in those phrases are identical, that’s not minimal techno…that’s boring (or occasionally “drone”).
IDK…if you can’t predict when things are going to change at least a couple bars ahead of time and KNOW whether it’s the first or fifth measure of a phrase, you’ve got more listening to do before any of this is going to make sense.
Quick bar blues progressions change chords I to IV at measure 2 and measure 5, but it’s not like you actually get lost as to which one is which. Numbers let us talk about it, but it’s easier to feel it while you’re playing…an that applies to DJ gear as well as guitars.
I was just describing how I learned it. When I started DJing, I was confused hearing DJs talk about things in 8 after years of thinking of things in 4 when in school. For example, I learned the blues progression as 3 four bar phrases.
Feel might work for some people, it obviously works for you. I just don’t trust feel enough I guess. Maybe I haven’t been doing this long enough for feel to work for me. It’s probably why I was also never very good at jazz either.
If 8 works for the OP, go with 8, if 4 does, go with 4. Apple or Oranges, we’re still going to make a fruit salad.
8 measures, but we both know that would be weird. If you signaled me to take a 2 chorus solo, though, I would definitely do my best to not screw things up too badly for 24 measures. It’s been awhile since I performed live, but normally the “signal” would just be a nod and then you were off the the races.
All we are doing is arguing on “proper” terminology. If you look at my original post, I did define what I considered to be a phrase and more than a phrase (the term I used was “phrase group”). Now I have a pretty good idea what you consider a phrase. Even though we have different ways to define things, I bet we both have similar understanding of the basic principles.
Terminology is what makes this debate complicated especially if you refer to a bar as a measure or if you refer to it as a group of 8 which record box does… If I had sheet music in front of me I could really define it
As far as I know, a “bar” and a “measure” are the same thing. I guess I don’t have any experience in the terminology recordbox uses.
It’s interesting that you chose Spring by Vivaldi. Baroque music (or anything pre-classical period) doesn’t follow hypermeter (4 bar phrases). The phrases in this piece are 6 bars.
It wasn’t intentional I just googled free sheet music and found quickest one to illustrate a measure I could find… Yeah I never noticed in recordbox till other day I always considered them the same thing but based on what I’ve read here there is some confusion or miss information
https://vimeo.com/117073904
This would be a dick move as a producer switching beats half way in a measure. But I was going to use this as an example by showing a step sequencer but now I’m second guessing my terminology and will have to fact check myself
As I was going to say each bank of 4 steps is 1 beat if a measure but now I’m doubting myself… As each bank could be 4 quarter notes but 4 quarter notes is one measure which would mean a 16- step sequencer would actually be 4 measures
Love all this music theory.
Thing is, I remember studying this as a young child.
Started DJ’ing in the 90’s without remembering a thing about phrasing. If i’d have mentioned it then everyone would have been ‘Wha?’
To reiterate a previous post on this thread, it’s a gut instinct after years of practice. For me it’s a kind of Star war’s ‘force’ that allows you to just know when to transition.
Someone posted this image previously from a Bill brewster book, think it explains it fully.
Is a bar the same as a meassure, which consists of 4 beats? What is called a ‘‘phrase’’?
Should I be counting 1234, 2234…4234 or should I be counting 1234, 2234…8234?
I can hear the changes happen, most of my music changes subtle after 32 beats, big changes after 64 (or a multiple of 64). This makes me think that a phrase consists of 32 beats (which equals 8 bars/meassures)?
What books would you suggest to read? Please remember that I have zero music knowledge.
hmy: