# Redlining - how bad is it? **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Created:** [April 12, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701 "2013-04-12T16:47:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![DISaS73R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c5a1d2/32.png) [@DISaS73R](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/DISaS73R)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/1 "2013-04-12T16:47:16Z")
**Redlining - how bad is it?** In addition to common sense, I’ve read multiple times that redlining is generally bad for the sound system and in the best case scenario you’ll end up with worse sound quality. However, I keep seeing popular DJs hit the reds and noone does anything about it. Can anyone clarify what the actual effects of redlining are? ---
**Author:** ![Sanader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Sanader](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/Sanader)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/2 "2013-04-12T16:56:41Z")
**Yes** Of course, it’s not good for the music quality, but, i don’t think it’s bad for your sound system… I think no one would say to a popular DJ that he his redlining, but it’s not good so.. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![makar1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@makar1](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/makar1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/3 "2013-04-12T16:57:13Z")
Most modern digital mixers have enough headroom and a limiter on top which stops the most serious problems caused by redlining. ---
**Author:** ![octostout](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ec9cab/32.png) [@octostout](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/octostout)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:52pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/4 "2013-04-12T18:52:13Z")
> [@makar1](#): > > Most modern digital mixers have enough headroom and a limiter on top which stops the most serious problems caused by redlining. But you still get really shitty sound when you do it. It’s because popular DJs usually dont know what they’re doing ---
**Author:** ![makar1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@makar1](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/makar1)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/5 "2013-04-12T18:54:13Z")
If you’re within headroom and fully below the limiter there’s no loss of quality. It’s only bad when your transients get squashed and you start compressing your sound. ---
**Author:** ![loverocket](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/loverocket/32/11391_2.png) [@loverocket](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/loverocket)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:00pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/6 "2013-04-12T19:00:44Z")
one red=ok / two red=no good / three red=no no ---
**Author:** ![No\_Left\_Turn](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/no_left_turn/32/13374_2.png) [@No\_Left\_Turn](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/No_Left_Turn)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 7:19pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/7 "2013-04-12T19:19:22Z")
There are really only 2 scenarios that explain why ANYONE would ever be running the reds. 1. You think that louder is better. Not only are you the DJ, but you’re also the sound engineer. You’ve taken it upon yourself to make sure the club is as loud as possible, completely disregarding the fact that you did not set up the sound system. 2. You’re playing after one of the aforementioned “DJs” and can’t drop lord knows how many dB to save the DJ mixer/sound system without killing the energy in the club. I find myself in scenario #2 quite often and with the sound engineer nowhere to be found. In my 12 years of DJing, I’ve only ever spoken to the sound engineer maybe 5x. Those were the best sounding shows I’ve ever played. They made sure that as long as I was playing at a medium level (2-3 yellow/orange) that they’d have me nice and loud on the PA. ---
**Author:** ![cpetticrew](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/cpetticrew/32/10391_2.png) [@cpetticrew](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/cpetticrew)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/8 "2013-04-12T20:16:34Z")
> [@loverocket](#): > > one red=ok / two red=no good / three red=no no haha love it ---
**Author:** ![bumtsch](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/bumtsch/32/30_2.png) [@bumtsch](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/bumtsch)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2013, 11:50pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/9 "2013-04-12T23:50:28Z")
> [@loverocket](#): > > one red=ok / two red=no good / three red=no no That really depends on the mixer 😃 ---
**Author:** ![mostapha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/mostapha/32/14134_2.png) [@mostapha](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/mostapha)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 7:29am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/10 "2013-04-13T07:29:06Z")
Without knowing which scale they’re using, dB numbers don’t mean much. “Red” means even less than that. You can hook the mixer up to an osciliscope if you really care, but here’s what it boils down to: DJs don’t understand levels. Digital audio made it even worse. Meters are made to compensate. Some more so than others. If you hear distortion, start turning things down. In general, it’s worse for channels to hit red than outputs because your mixer is still doing processing (EQ, summing, possibly effects). And all of that processing is affected by its input level, sometimes drastically. Mixers have wildly varying output levels. For example, on some xones, it was correct to run them just below the clip light to feed the next gain stage correctly: it appears the designers knew that DJs were idiots, so to ouptut a nice line-level signal that was relatively noise free, you had to run them so they looked like they were cooking everything. I have no idea if the modern ones are the same. My uk-made xone:62 (sold a while ago) was like that. And at a big show/club/event 99 times out of 100, the mixer is going into direct boxes that feed a bigger live sound console anyway. When that happens, the DI takes the mixer’s output down to microphone level, and it’s re-amplified to a line level signal by people who know more about sound than the vast majority of DJs anyway. Then, as long as the DJ doesn’t clip the summing bus or the output stage, it’ll be the right volume in the end. And any issues you’re getting are dynamic range issues (very minor with insanely compressed music) and gain staging issues (somewhat mitigated by using good gear with really low noise floors). And some mixers (some Pioneers, Eclers, etc., though I’m not sure exactly which ones) have attenuators built in that can further reduce the level before the output stage (probably pre-DAC on the digital ones as well) so the meters mean even less…just to compensate for people who think the clip light means “almost loud enough”. When they’re set up like that, pegging the red all the time is the correct thing to do. Unfortuantely, those mixers have helped the problem. And for those times when you actually do see a realistic digital meter that tops out at 0dBFS (digital zero), keep in mind that running close to it is kind of like running a console at around +50dB. Nothing sounds good like that. ---
**Author:** ![mdcdesign](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/mdcdesign/32/12856_2.png) [@mdcdesign](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/mdcdesign)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 11:42am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/11 "2013-04-13T11:42:13Z")
There’s another problem that nobody on here has mentioned yet; some clubs actually TELL you to set all the gains to max, simply because their amps are set too low for you to have acceptable volume, and they can’t be bothered to go into whatever distant room the amps are in to crank them up. ---
**Author:** ![DISaS73R](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c5a1d2/32.png) [@DISaS73R](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/DISaS73R)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 12:59pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/12 "2013-04-13T12:59:13Z")
> [@mostapha](#): > > … Damn, that was an interesting read. So long story short, we should rely solely on our ears and not look at the levels. ---
**Author:** ![makar1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/fbc32d/32.png) [@makar1](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/makar1)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 1:02pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/13 "2013-04-13T13:02:12Z")
Your ears aren’t going to tell you when you’re hitting the limiter or clipping slightly. Stay out of the red unless the sound tech says otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![the\_bastet](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/the_bastet/32/56295_2.png) [@the\_bastet](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/the_bastet)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2013, 2:16pm UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/14 "2013-04-13T14:16:12Z")
Por serio. Stay clear of the red on your channels. Its just like mixing down a tune. Give yourself enough headroom on the master so you dont peak. If you need the monitors and/or PA to be louder inform the sound tech to adjust the levels (in most cases you can easily adjust the monitors yourself via the booth knob on a pioneer). ---
**Author:** ![mostapha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/mostapha/32/14134_2.png) [@mostapha](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/mostapha)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 7:56am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/15 "2013-04-14T07:56:01Z")
> [@DISaS73R](#): > > Damn, that was an interesting read. So long story short, we should rely solely on our ears and not look at the levels. No. Your ears are going to be shot by the end of the night. If you don’t take care of them (read: wear earplugs any time you go to an event, whether performing or attending), they’re proably already suffering. If there’s a sound guy you can talk to, talk to him. If not, aim for green. People (managers, patrons, bar staff, etc.) will let you know if it’s not loud enough. Make sure it’s them telling you to risk damaging their system and sounding terrible and not just you doing it because you don’t know what you’re doing. And if you’re lucky, you’ll be loud and sound good. ---
**Author:** ![Shishdisma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Shishdisma](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/Shishdisma)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2013, 9:37am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/16 "2013-04-14T09:37:26Z")
> [@mostapha](#): > > No. > > Your ears are going to be shot by the end of the night. If you don’t take care of them (read: wear earplugs any time you go to an event, whether performing or attending), they’re proably already suffering. > > If there’s a sound guy you can talk to, talk to him. If not, aim for green. People (managers, patrons, bar staff, etc.) will let you know if it’s not loud enough. > > Make sure it’s them telling you to risk damaging their system and sounding terrible and not just you doing it because you don’t know what you’re doing. And if you’re lucky, you’ll be loud and sound good. To add to this, for “less engineered” events (read: self powered speakers within range of the booth teched by you or an idiot), the only real “red” that matters is the input overload meters/alarms on whatever the mixer’s running in to. Just make sure the amp/console/speaker isn’t getting torn up, and you can run whatever output/gain combination you feel like. If there’s an actual “SE,” even better, he gets to whiteglove the knobs for you, and tell you what to run at. 8/10 times, a non-clipping mixer level overloading an amp a touch will be met with a minor reduction in input gain and absolutely no trouble. If that SE is over 35 and doesn’t understand the concept of digital headroom, well, that’s the other 2/10. This only applies to small (1-2 total boxes or self powered speakers) rigs though, the big guys can get pretty damn neurotic. Fun fact: I have only heard a newer DJM clip once. The mixer’s meters would have to be at the equivalent of the edge of the faceplate (look at a picture of a DJM) to actually hit the absurd 18db of headroom. If you hear clipping with an 800+ in the chain, 9/10 times it isn’t the mixer clipping, but it’s probably the mixer’s fault. Fun fact 2: The normal “balancing” output level of a DJM is “3 yellows,” at 4db IIRC. This is because the mixer and input can be balanced at “3 yellows,” a respectable level, then have the attenuator (that about -5 people know exist…) set to max, and thus people can effectively play at peak meters while still keeping the nice “3 yellows” output level. As long as whoever’s in charge is whitegloving the master knob wholesale (that effing knob, that has a fucking guide printed on it, has damaged more equipment than all the beer in the world). ---
**Author:** ![mostapha](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/flex001/user_avatar/forum.djtechtools.com/mostapha/32/14134_2.png) [@mostapha](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/mostapha)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 3:25am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/17 "2013-04-15T03:25:30Z")
Hilarious. Yeah. One of the weirdest things I’ve seen was a gigantic amp stack for a 6000 person club with all the levels maxed out. I asked about it, and they said “it’s easiest to see when something’s set wrong”. The amps they were using were pretty simple beasts. And everything important happened in the board. I asked about their gain staging and got a free drink out of it while he explained that, yes, they were doing some things very wrong but that in a world of songs with basically no dynamic range and digital audio with a basically inaudible noise floor, it didn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ollin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/439d5e/32.png) [@Ollin](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/Ollin)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:03am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/18 "2013-04-15T04:03:13Z")
Reminds me of Baauers set yesterday at Coachella, the whole time it was at MAX like it didn’t even dip. It just stayed at full red bars the whole time, that and his set wasn’t very good either. ---
**Author:** ![KS2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e480ec/32.png) [@KS2](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/KS2)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:51am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/19 "2013-04-15T04:51:03Z")
> [@No\_Left\_Turn](#): > > 1. You’re playing after one of the aforementioned “DJs” and can’t drop lord knows how many dB to save the DJ mixer/sound system without killing the energy in the club. Been there. What are you meant to do when it’s set up like that when you jump on? ---
**Author:** ![Shishdisma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Shishdisma](https://forum.djtechtools.com/u/Shishdisma)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2013, 4:53am UTC](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701/20 "2013-04-15T04:53:09Z")
> [@KS2](#): > > Been there. What are you meant to do when it’s set up like that when you jump on? Brake/backspin, talk a little bit, and reset the floor. The dance floor shuffling around/cooling off a bit for a minute isn’t going to ruin anyone’s night if it’s done smoothly. [Next page](https://forum.djtechtools.com/t/redlining-how-bad-is-it/55701.md?page=2)