The Pull of "Industry Standard"

DJ Life & Community General Discussion
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The Pull of “Industry Standard”

Disclaimer: I’m not trolling or looking to start a flame war. If you enter this thread with one of those objectives, I humbly ask you to step aside so we can have some actual discussion on this matter. I’m asking this question because in over two years on DJTT I’ve never seen the question addressed (apologies if I just missed it). Let’s keep this one mature, folks.

One of the terms that gets thrown around all the time on this board is “industry standard.” As most of you know, it refers to the setup that you are most likely to encounter in a club. This setup for the past 5ish years at least has been: 2 Tecnics 1200 mk ii, 2 CDJ 1000 mk iii (or CDJ 2000), and a DJM 800 (or 900). The CDJs and turntables - if you get used to another pair, you can probably adjust to using the industry standard when you show up to a club. Even using Denon or Stanton players, the general layout is pretty standard for the most part. The mixer, on the other hand, is a bit of a different beast. Yes, you’ll (usually) have 3 band EQ, channel faders, and a crossfader, but that’s where the standardization (usage-wise) ends.

So, for everyone who owns a “non-standard” (non-DJM800/900) mixer, why did you purchase your mixer in particular? I’m not saying the other mixers are bad by any means. In fact, I’d even say the DB4 (for example) looks like a better mixer than the DJM 900 from what I’ve seen. The problem I couldn’t get past in my head when it came to buying one though was this; If I buy a DB4 and get used to all of its effects, filter eq mode, filters, etc. - what happens when I have to DJ on a DJM 800? Now, the DJM series has been built to be user-friendly, so I don’t doubt that it would be fairly easy to adjust. But, if you’re practicing on a piece of equipment, doesn’t it make more sense to have that equipment be the same as what you would use when you’re out gigging? I know a bunch of little tricks and tweaks with the DJM 900/800 effects now that I would never have picked up had I not had one to practice on; so if I’d owned a DB4 instead, I would be less practiced on the equipment I’ll be using gigging out. The DB4’s a sick mixer, but what does that matter if it’s just sitting in your bedroom? I’ve read a lot of comments from DB4 owners to the effect of, “it’s changed the way I mix.” Does that not mean you’re hosed when you have to use another mixer?

The same problem extends to the Xone:92. It’s a great mixer with warm, vibrant sound and precise EQing. However, being used to 4-band EQ and the Xone filter - how do you adjust to a Pioneer setup with only 3 bands and a more resonant non-adjustable filter?

Now, I know certain venues will allow you to bring your own mixer, but that’s not very common. Hell, how many threads/posts have we had about DJs bitching about fitting midi controllers into booths? Mixers aren’t any easier to fit.

I’m not saying it’s impossible to adjust; hell, even someone who’s only mixed on an S4 could probably walk up to a DJM 800 and do a decent job of mixing. But, not being used to it, one wouldn’t be able to do more advanced/interesting things with effects. Which reminds me of an issue with both the S4 and DB4 - neither have post-fader effects. If you’re not utilizing the post-fader capability of the effects on a DJM, you’re missing out on quite a bit; that’s the type of difference I’m specifically talking about.

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Few days ago I finally decided to buy a DB2. I haven’t found the time to do so lately, but my choice was definitive.

Now, because of your thread, i’m reconsidering it. FUUUU :disappointed:

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A mixer is a mixer at the end of the day, they have cue buttons, volume faders and EQs. What does it matter which brand you use?

I’ve played in clubs with everything from shitty two channel geminis to wanky touchscreen Pios, it doesn’t really matter what you’re in front of, they all do the same thing.

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Just don’t become reliant on the effects/filters that a certain mixer has, but most others don’t. It’s good to learn different techniques for mixing with and without effects, so if something is not available to you at a certain time, you always have another option and won’t be screwed. As long as you are at least able to mix with just faders and eq knobs, you can use any mixer.

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This is definitely something that is an issue and does come up. In fact, I’m in the middle of changing my setup, namely the mixer right now. When I started years ago I bought what was in the “Industry Standard” DJM-600, and loved it for a long time, until i got more scratch oriented. At that time I switched to my current mixer, the Vestax PMC-08, and I love this thing, but now I’m tempted to change again. Now, I’m never one for “Industry Standard” honestly. Right now I’m looking to go back to a 4-channel mixer, preferably scratch certified so I can stop carrying this damn interface with me everywhere and simplify my setup a little because I’m complicating it in different ways (adding lots of new MIDI pieces).

Your right, not being used to the DJM series anymore, I can’t/don’t take advantage of it’s capabilities as much as I used to. Also, when I’m forced to not use my own gear, it does limit my capabilities. Which is why I end up lugging around nearly all my stuff to gigs if they’ll let me. So here’s where I sit right now… I’d love to have a DJM-900 Nexus… But I don’t have $1500+ to spend on one, I have around $500-800. So what am I looking at? Korg Zero 4 and the Denon DN1600. Both mixers you will probably never find in a club DJ setup, but both solid mixers. Honestly, I like the capability of both of these mixers better then the DJM as well. Actually fighting with myself right now on which one to grab. But the thing here is “Industry Standard” and why deviate… Well my objective is simple, to turn my “DJ” rig into more of a Live Remix/Production rig… Turning into more of a live performance rather then just a DJ. Now when you do this, your setups become immensely more intricate and complex. I have to be very careful about each piece of gear I pick up, making sure it’s going to fit this schematic I’ve got perfectly. The DJM, while it would work well, doesn’t work as well for my setup as the other two.

So in essence… No matter the “Industry Standard” there are always going to be people like myself that simply choose gear because of price-points and features, and the “Industry Standard” is never known to have all the features. Hell, I don’t even use the “Industry Standard” 1200s… I love my Vestax PDX series tables, for their versatility and features. Maybe I’m just very anti-standard, but I like my setup to be me, not everyone else… And that’s why I don’t give in to the “Industry Standard”…

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@ TreTuna :

But your aim as a musician is to give your audience the best experience ever, right ? Don’t you think not being trained to use a mixer’s “special features” (mosly FX, filters and how they work/sound) will have a negative impact on the performance you offer to your crowd ?

If you replied yes to these question, why would you still stay away from industry standard given the fact that it’s the only way to deliver what you got best for your audience ?

(I’m neither a pro-industy standard nor an anti-industry standard guy, I’m in a dilema aswell about my new mixer).

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There is no justification for learning on super expensive gear. You wouldn’t learn to drive in a Ferrari, would you? Expensive gear will buy itself if you ever get good enough to CHARGE for playing!

OR - if you’re in this for the art - you have enough time to SAVE for high end gear WHILE you are learning…

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It’s not about being reliant on the effects though. I could easily mix a decent set using just EQ and faders - I certainly had enough practice doing so when I used my Mackie d.4 Pro. That said, while the set would be decent, it wouldn’t be fantastic. Being limited to only EQ and faders would lead to a far less expressive mix. You don’t have to be reliant on effects to make their usage worthwhile though, and knowing the ins and outs of the mixer you’re using allows you to use the effects in more unique ways rather than just “flanger here for four bars” and “half beat echo for a bar here”. I was at a club last saturday and the DJ only used the flanger for effects all night, and only at the 8 beat cycle LFO to boot (pretty sure it was Serato’s flanger, didn’t soung like Pio’s). He wasn’t a fantastic DJ to start with, but theoretically if he was more comfortable with the effects on that mixer he could have put out a much more involving set. Instead he pretty much only used EQ and faders along with some pretty poor scratching for transitions. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Would effects have made him a better DJ? No, but at least they would have added a bit of variety and spice to his mixes rather than just straight A->B mixing.

It’s not about, “I can only use a DJM 900 because without the Spiral effect my sets are worthless.” It’s about being used to working with how the effects are specifically implemented on the mixers you’re most likely to use. As an example, the DJM 900 echo comes in quite loud because it constantly samples as soon as the effect is selected. You can work around this by gradually increasing the dry/wet or by selecting an empty channel to apply the effect to until you want to bring it it. That’s the type of thing you’d have no clue about without having used the mixer, and would tend to make you shy away from using its effects in a club. Personally I’d rather sacrifice a bit on having exactly the mixer I would prefer at home in favor of not being limited to only using the EQ and channel faders when I’m gigging out. I guess I’d put it as, “I can use any mixer, but when I’m playing for people (not just for myself) then I want to put on the best show I can.” And the “best show” I can put on is one that utilizes effects.

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I didn’t say learning, I said practicing. I know there’s a price-point issue and I’m not expecting people to take out loans to buy DJM 800s. I’m assuming that anyone looking at something along the lines of a DB4 has the cash to throw down on a DJM 800/900 considering the DB4 is substantially more expensive. I suppose I should have clarified that, but I assumed most people would have realized that I wasn’t just being blind to the costs involved.

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Great post. This is exactly why I purchased a DJM-800. I had a Xone 42 for a while and sold it.

I’ve played at some places that don’t have a DJM, one place had a TTM-57. While I’m not “reliant” on the DJM-800 I am used it, so I’ve mapped an X1 to SSL for filters and delay and use that when a DJM-800/900 is not present.

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The majority of the places I have ever played at have had a DJM 500-900. Either that or its some lounge with a crappy numark mixer. I have never once seen an A&H mixer in the booth. So I did what everyone else does I bought cdjs and a djm, and I don’t regret the decision one bit. I’m all for other equipment, but for buying into something I wanted to make sure I knew my way around pio’s gear. This isn’t a go pio post or anything either, if A&H were in all the booths I’d probably go that route.

I know when I’m on some other weird gear I definitely play pretty conservative maybe messing around here and there, but not much.

I am working on upgrading my DJM 700 to a 900 soon to get some of the onboard effects that are new with it.

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A Delay is a Delay. A Flanger a flanger and so on.

Parameters for effects are generally the same across most mixers with effects built in. Once you spend a minute or two determining how to manipulate those effects, I can’t see why you’re going to have an issue, or be less creative with how you ruin your track. As far as Xone: 4 bands, you may have to adjust, but you can’t be paralyzed by the fact you don’t have hi and lo mids, and I doubt anyone that has used an EQ has become any worse, or less expressive by switching from one format to the other.

Most people have certain effects that they latch onto most, and a majority of those are represented in mixers that include effects. Just take a minute to get used to the differences of the parameters included in one mixer vs the other (resonance, feedback, frequency, etc.), and buy what you can afford.

I think people make too much of familiarity with mixers and cd players, unless you rely on equipment because you use a specific format (eg. Rekordbox analyzed USB sticks).

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I ended up going for club standard. Here in Brighton that’s either a xone 92 or 62. So i bought a 62. I want to be comfortable when i play out and give the best performance possible with gear i know. i would hate to come from 3 band eq’s to suddenly have to use 4band. That’s a recipe for disaster :open_mouth:

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Sorry dude but thats way off. A gater on traktor does not sound the same as a trans effect on a pio. Nor do the filters. Or the echos or flangers. They might be the same idea but how those companies tweak them can really sound vastly different. even full eq kills vs none, reverbs, crush, roll. All have distinct sounds on pio gear vs A&H gear vs traktor etc. You have to play with the gear long enough to know the tendencies of that gear.

Navigating through a CDJ 2000 is a much different experience even from navigating a cdj 800. When you know when jog tension you like, what tempo range you want, how to use certain features, it makes a difference. For instance CDJ 400s have effects built in, you could utilize then well if you weren’t really familiar with how to use them, unless you feel like butchering a set.

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i personally don’t have the moeny for any pio gear. in any aspect of music creation, or playing, i have found that just because you don’t have an industry standard piece of equipment doesn’t mean that it won’t sound good. im going from my american audio vms4 (which is flawless) to their cd players (mostly because i can’t afford pio’s) i have found that in the end its all about how comfortable you are with equipment. and currently i am looking for a multi format cd player that can double as a midi controller, and a mixer that can double as either an interface, and/or a midi controller.

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I never said they sound the same. Not even CLOSE. But I have the same choices on my Zero4 to manipulate an effects processor as I do in Traktor, and they do, generally, the EXACT same thing. So there is no discomfort moving from one to the other, and because I don’t use the Zero4’s more than Traktors effects, doesn’t mean I can’t get comfortable in a matter of minutes.

If you tie your ability to mix to hardware, then fine. More power to you. But I don’t feel like that’s the rule but the exception.

I switched to this setup from a DJM-400, and any discomfort I felt in mixing was quickly alleviated in 5 minutes, once I understood how they worked. I understand if you want to be comfortable with the gear, but it’s not a requirement to sound good. Things feel different, I’ll absolutely concede that, but just because it feels different than what you’re accustomed to shouldn’t mean you can’t use it.

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This topic isn’t about Pioneer sounding better because it costs more.

My set-up is identical to the set-ups I play on across the World. Out of 100 gigs, around 95 of them will be on 2 x Pioneer CDJ1000 mk2/3 or Pioneer CDJ2000 and a DJM800/900.

When I spend hours learning not only the effects, but the distance between faders, the range of the EQ, the feel of the faders and way they move - I want to know the things I have practiced can be instantly transferred to the booth and I can focus on what is important; the music.

I like to think of it like a racing car driver - do they practice in different cars and then sit in a different one when ‘proper’ races come along? I think not.

That is just my take on things, obviously everyone has their own feelings on this matter - but as a professional I want the standard I’m going to face week-in week-out.

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I can see where you are coming from here and yes that is a good reason to have “industry standard” gear.

I myself like to be versatile, I like to have a go on all equipment so that I feel comfortable using whatever is placed in front of me rather than being awkward if something else is there instead.

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I can appreciate that. Maybe I’m looking at this the wrong way, and while your comparison isn’t necessarily apples to apples, I get your point. At the same time, I’m sure you would agree that if you started on something less than a 1000mk3, it doesn’t mean that you were so blown away the first time you saw it that you couldn’t operate one.

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It’s fun because it sounds like you totally misunderstood what we said no_rex4u.

We never said that industry standard was better gear, and that it sounded better.
But if you are not used to the equipment you use at the club, because what you have at home is different, it won’t sound as good as when you practice. Which is a shame given the fact that at the club you have a crowd, while at home you’re alone.

Exactly. And to be confortable with the way a mixer works, to know it inside out and to be aware of all the tips and tricks (i.e. the example of echo on the DJM 900 said above) the best thing is to own that mixer at home.

That’s the purpose of the thread. Even if “industry standard” gear (especially mixers in our case) is not the best available, and is super expensive, would you buy it for home use, so that you can be trained and aware of what you’re in front of in the booth ?
Or on the other hand would you prefer to buy some better gear, and practice on it, knowing this practice is kind of useless since you’ll never have that mixer in a club ?

That’s the dilema here.

PS : kind of a thread hijack but now that i find myself discussing the topic here, i pretty much convinced myself to buy a pioneer mixer.
anyone tried the 850 ? do you think it’s worth it ?
I got an audio 10 so I don’t need a 900 for it’s built-in soundcard, but are the other additional features (compared to a 800/850) worth the money spent ?