Native Instruments has a weekly Q&A thread where the developers answer questions about the product. I submitted a question as to what it would take for NI to engage the Linux community to discuss possibly releasing their products on the Linux platform. Predictably, market demand is their core reason for not doing so.
So I must ask…would you consider Linux as your primary platform for DJ’ing if the products were available? If not, what would prevent you from doing so?
[QUOTE]Tobias G wrote:
The popular explanation is correct. To offer a Linux version of Traktor, we would need to set up a complete „third branch“ for Linux development, Linux QA and Linux tech support next to our Windows and Mac resources. This would be a huge investment that would never be even remotely compensated through the sales of a Linux version, because the number of „Linux-only“ DJs is very low. And to reduce our resources for Mac and Windows to shift them to Linux is also not really an option.
There are quite a number of Linux friends working at NI and we were happy to support the platform by helping with the development of the ALSA drivers for all the NI audio interfaces, but any commitment beyond that is just not a practical priority for us.[/QUOTE]
To which I ask →
“Is it me or is that possibly due to the fact that the number of Linux DJ applications is very low?”
The question is how big a risk is NI willing to take to “look and see” how many people are interested. There is no compelling evidence that there is considerable interest.
Back with BeOS, I would have seen a compelling technical reason for audio companies to flock to this platform. But there is nothing in Linux that makes it considerably better or appealing for audio work.
I’m not sure what your experience is with Linux but statements such as “there is nothing in Linux that makes it considerably better or appealing for audio work” is exactly the type of misconception that is prevalent in the market. For starters, Linux as an OS is modular (versus the monolithic design of Windows); it can be tuned and customized for specific tasks such as audio. Stanford University hosts the Planet CCRMA project which focuses on low-latency audio (and video) applications. There are entire communities dedicated to realtime kernel performance on this platform; for all of the complaints and concerns about latency on the “mainstream” platforms, I am confused as to why Linux is not given more consideration. Most importantly, Linux is freely available; how many dollars are being left on the table from users who may not be able to afford to buy a Windows license or purchase the latest upgrade?
If you ask companies such as NI which is more important between popularity and capability…well, you already know the answer. But when that ceiling starts to get lower, what is the next option? People are counting on XP sticking around and the jury is out on Windows 7 at this point.
The DJ application user base generally isn’t technically savvy enough to deal with the stuff you need to deal with daily when using any flavor of Linux - even really friendly distros like Debian and Ubuntu. The FIRST time a regular user comes up against a dropout, driver issue, etc and can’t get an answer they’ll run for the hills. And they’ll set fire to the company releasing said software.
A company needs to be able to “own” support issues, even if those issues aren’t generated by their application. So NI would have to be able to not only dedicate the resources needed to develop the product in the first place, they would need to also SUPPORT the product.
After 6 years of being involved in one way or another in the support of digital DJ products, I have no confidence at all that this would be a good move at all. It would be pain in massive doses.
Actually I know Linux quite well. I am a PHP programmer by day (actually I am the release manager for the upcoming 5.3 release) and I almost always deploy on Linux. I also know that Linux is not a micro kernel either, so it tries to be a clean monolithic kernel. At any rate, there is nothing radically better to offset the fact that is no current market worth noting for Linux aside for server apps and maybe a slowly growing one for developer tools.
But if Linux .. why not also any of the various BSD variants? Again none of them bring something with them that is drastically better than Windows or OSX when it comes to audio processing. Once they do .. it will be a different proposition for NI, but I do not see this happening. And even then .. as I pointed out BeOS still lost out .. even though it ran circles around its competition when it came to audio and video processing.
You mean like they do with the Windows platform? What is the difference? FWIW, there are numerous Linux forums where answers are received in quick fashion. This is one of the strengths of the platform - community. See: Planet CCRMA and the Linux Audio Users group.
Been to the NI forum lately? Infernos on a daily basis - Get Some!
Or they could draw on community support. They also could lend support to having their applications run under the WINE emulation layer similar to the way that they offer support for ALSA hardware drivers.
Nice Empolo, I did look into Wine, for running a app on OSx, but this is major is all these NI programs run flawless.
I really dont see NI putting too much time into getting there programs to run natively on Linux being that Most Digital Dj’s are on PC or Mac, now I know there is a community of dj that use linux and there are programs like Mixxx.
I would say to find a alternate way of running your favorite NI program on Linux, with Wine.
The KIND of issues you deal with daily. File management, installation and uninstallation of software, tweaking systems for better performance, etc. In Windows and OSX, solutions to problems are usually pretty easy to find and implement. In linux, many times that process turns into something like…
Oh yeah, they’re gonna get that. Nooo problem.
Right. Show me the forums where users can get answers to questions about audio production and DJing WITHOUT getting bogged down in stuff like how to manually configure asoundconf using a command line. Because that is NOT accessible to the average user.
Yes, I have. And ALL of those people are all having problems with an OS that is easy to handle through the GUI. And where guides exist to suit THEIR SPECIFIC SITUATION in multiple places. That issue would be an order of magnitude worse in Linux.
“Community” support for a paid program is bullshit. So a user is going to pay $200 for a piece of software, and when they have a problem you think it’s acceptable for NI to say “sorry, we don’t support that directly - please visit the user forum”. No sir.
Because I’ve been through it all before and know what I’m talking about.
Linux native DJ software needs to come from the Linux community. It needs to be free and open. Once you monetize it, there are expectations that need to be met. And Linux has no way of meeting them in any kind of realistic way. To that end, Stanton is working directly with developers (like Mixxx) and helping them in any way we can (the new MIDI scripting engine is a direct result of that work). We’re also opening up our HSS1394 library so the SCS1 products can be developed towards. But it doesn’t COST our company anything to support open source, so it’s easy to make the decision to support it. If it DID cost us money (as it would with NI), then we would be more hesitant.
I use and work with Linux at work and home. We employ linux on backend servers and front end clients. It is by far the most stable operating system out there. I own Macs and Pc’s also.. Linux runs wonderful on both machines. Crashes are rare .. it would be great to use linux live at a show … definitely for peace of mind. Its just as reliable if not more reliable than osx and windows.
Here is a great link for free audio/dj software - www.linux-sound.org
Some of the software can run on win or osx or both.
I use Hydrogen for a lot of drum loops/samples - love the program .. just got the newest april release.
As far as tracktor creating an app for linux … don’t think it will happen anytime soon
[QUOTE]The KIND of issues you deal with daily. File management, installation and uninstallation of software, tweaking systems for better performance, etc. In Windows and OSX, solutions to problems are usually pretty easy to find and implement. In linux, many times that process turns into something like…
Oh yeah, they’re gonna get that. Nooo problem.[/QUOTE]
You’re nitpicking and would be fooling yourself if you think that anyone in here can’t find as many counter-examples of needed hacks on the Windows platform. It is also common knowledge that there are far more Windows users than Linux users and thus relatively far more problems. Keep it relative - thanks.
Ok.
Try this one → Linux Audio Users Mailing List
Notice near the top of the page where is says:
“The LAU list is intended for people focusing on using rather than hacking audio and MIDI applications. It’s a place for all things audio, but they should be viewed from a user’s perspective. If it’s getting overly technical, take it as a sign to move it over to the LAD list.”
Not only are there GUI-based tools available for configuring every aspect of your Linux system, there are even free tools for creating your own GUI prompts.
Erm, supplement not replace - c’mon. A subscription-style support system is also an option - ask Red Hat.
If you say so but then you should know better than to marginalize Linux as only being useful with the command line like you did above.
Glad to hear - looking forward to it. I’ll be grabbing the latest beta this week - want to check out the MIDI learn and scripting features. By the way, I installed the latest version via PackageKit. You know - PackageKit - the “system designed to make installing and updating software on your computer easier”?
Ardour is the preeminent open-source DAW that is right up there with Pro Tools. Ardour was being sponsored monetarily by the SAE Institute until February. The lead developer now depends on subscriptions and donations to keep full-time development going. The monthly donation goal is $4500 - it has been reached each time.
Here’s the rub - Ardour’s documentation is incomplete and has been for some time. Still, because it works so well, people are willing to pay to keep the project alive even though there is no direct support. There is a community of users who are more than happy to help shore up the back-end.
But you’ve made your point for me. You’re right, you CAN find guides to optimize Windows for better audio performance. They’re EVERYWHERE, and they can almost always be done without any kind of arcane knowledge, command line interaction, or indeed computer knowledge more advanced than my father.
Really? A MAILING LIST? Gotcha!
LOL! Oh yeah. With gems like these… Loading... This is totally accessible. Loading... Firewire Solo driver install Loading... This is a search for “DJing” on that forum.
You need to add the words “IF IT’S SUPPORTED” to your sentence. If not (and A LOT isn’t) then you’re in la la land. I’ll be bothering with creating my own GUI prompts right after I figure out how to get my audio interface up and running properly (that is if I don’t give up first and go back to Windows or OSX).
[quote]Erm, supplement not replace - c’mon. A subscription-style support system is also an option - ask Red Hat. [/quote]So instead, they’re going to charge more for continuing support? Because they WILL have to charge for it (eitehr that, or make the Linux version more expensive than it’s counterparts).
I didn’t say anything of the sort. What I said (and the greater point I’m making) is that most users taking their existing hardware and making a switch to Linux will be FORCED to the command line at some point to try and configure their hardware. They’ll be forced to search endlessly through forums hoping to find the answer to a problem they don’t even know how to properly describe.
That’s great. While you were doing that, I was most likely playing with Traktor. I don’t need anything to make installing software easier. I just double click it and go.
And those are users that didn’t pay for either the operating system they’re using or the DAW. So kicking in to help with development is great. But this isn’t how you treat people who paid for the OS and the software.
Well there are certainly some advantages of running linux over mac and windows (you can do some pretty intense audio processing at a realy low latency) - but i can definantly see from NI’s perspective why they wouldnt want to go into that territory. The market isnt very big either and they definantly wouldnt get their return back on it.
Its not to say that linux isnt a good solution for some users, its just not a good solution for most users.
This isn’t your father’s OS. Plus, I made MY point which was a response to your nitpicking attempt to claim that troubleshooting in Linux is complex and difficult. I merely pointed out that the same could be said for any OS and especially Windows on a much wider scale. Now you want to point to the fact that there is a significant amount of Windows How-To Guides out there in order to validate your point? Ok, I get it - you’re a point-n-click person. Noted.
Again, just one example. You again choose to nitpick. And yes, a mailing list.
Linux was started with a Usenet group posting →
Not sure why you’re LOL’ing (you must find discussions on how to expand a market (pointless or not) funny - that’s OK). And you’re still nitpicking - there are obviously many other resources.
I don’t need to add anything. SuSE, Red Hat, Oracle Unbreakable (Red Hat) all have supported GUI tools for system configuration. The free variants like Fedora have the same tools upstream and a community of users to help report problems and find solutions.
Or perhaps offer a tiered pricing structure. Dunno - marketing people are better at this type of thing.
You sound like you’re channeling your personal experiences. I understand that you’re all for dumbing things down but honestly I prefer to give my digital brothers and sisters more credit. I can go to front page of this web site and learn how to solder, flash a VCI-100, turn a Wii guitar into a Traktor controller and more. Surely I and others who are stepping into or have already dove into the digital realm can open a terminal window. Big deal - sometimes I need to edit my Windows registry too.
Again so what? I have Glovepie open on my Vista workstation to create binds for my Wiimote so that I can set my beatgrids with it while reading over the Mixxx site on my laptop. Opened everything on both machines with my mouse and a few clicks. Hmm, maybe I’ll grid a couple of tracks while my compiler builds the Mixxx beta.
The purpose is not to lobby NI with a single thread (hell, they’ve been lobbied for a couple of years now) but to figure out why the market is so anemic for this platform given its strengths. Admittedly, I did use NI as the main example but they certainly are not the only DJ software company that doesn’t see a market.
You see there’s always hope. There may be a catalyst somewhere that opens the door, someday. If there is, it will definitely start with the community - not by a product manager who isn’t willing to take a bet.
