Ean Golden style jogwheel fx in native mode!!

Made a quick mapping a la Ean Golden, designed to work in Native Mode. Allows you to toggle the right jogwheel between controlling all 3 fx in bank 2 chained mode and scratch control. Have a play around loads of fun.

Loaded the tsi. to mediafire for you - http://www.mediafire.com/?1qo59fz

Make sure you select fx for jogwheel mode in the prefs.

This mapping is for the right jogwheel and chained fx bank 2, and will work on whatever fx you have loaded. I reccomend using beatmasher in slot one same as in the Ean vid.

Use the right deck load button to toggle between controlling the fx and normal scratch/pitch bend.

If you wanted to control the left deck as well just duplicate the commands but change the deck focus to deck A.

Let me know how you go and any comments.

Dabeef.

Gonns try it out now! if it works as stated, THANK YOU! :) Been waiting for something like this for a long time.

Oh noes, the link doesn't seem to be working

Sorry bout that try - http://www.mediafire.com/?1qo59fzfcff5bah never tried to share a file before.

I take the bet your mapping is wrong. But meanwhile, what's the point of giving a link to download a shortcut to your documents?
;)

Just FYI, you can attache tsi files directly to the post.

How do i attach a mapping to the post?

Cheers for the attitude Yul, just trying to share my experiences. Not trying to piss people off with shit links just not sure of the best way to share the tsi. obviously having issues. If you could help me then we can all help each other:D

Click Reply, scroll down to Manage Attachments. Click.

A popup window will appear.

Click choose file and then upload.

Post the message and hopefully that attachment will be included in the post.

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Cheers for the attitude Yul, just trying to share my experiences. Not trying to piss people off with shit links just not sure of the best way to share the tsi. obviously having issues. If you could help me then we can all help each other

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That was a funny way of saying the link was actually for a shortcut, I thought that was fun, and it happens to me on a regular basis (missing things like that).

But yes I'll check your file anyway as I know my way (or I think I know) around the s4 mapping and I do think there's no way to come with a good solution that can work 100% of the time, but I'm ready to be wrong as it would be a good news.

And actually because of the thread's title, as it is very straightforward, don't be surprised if people tells you it's a bit misleading, right. Two exclamation marks in a title is serious bizzzzzzness. disclaimer: I'm teasing you again, don't take me that seriously.

I'm thinking about something else without needing to have a look at the file, it's only a thought so don't take that as negative: offering a mapping for only one deck just shows you didn't grasp the whole thing. It means you didn't cover at least a huge part of the issues to be solved as it doesn't cover the switch from a layer to another one, the potential switch of layouts and decks types, the native behaviour of the load button when set as fx control when you do the previous items I just mentioned. etc, etc...Of course those aren't the main issues, the main issue is to be previewed everything with the complex interactions of all events between themselves.
Did you preview the copy mode behaviour?
Did you previewed the switch to midi mode and back?

Cheers Geekgod, it was there under my nose all along must be blind, hopefully the tsi. is attached. Fingers crossed

Hey Yul all good, might not be exactly what your after but for a lot people this is something they have been trying to achieve. Its only a basic mapping not quite as intricate as Ean's but it can be developed.

Is this a joke?

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Hey Yul all good, might not be exactly what your after but for a lot people this is something they have been trying to achieve. Its only a basic mapping not quite as intricate as Ean's but it can be developed.

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I tried your file.
Just to be clear, you didn't achieve anything here to all. Your file is not helping, it's not even basic as it's fully false, you didn't preview the minimum things to be covered. It's not a solution, even for one deck, as soon as you do one thing or two the "mapping" is disrupted. Now It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

So great to have tried something but as far as it goes, you didn't prove anything or do anything of interest so don't tell me 'it can be developed' when obviously you don't have a clue at all, even if the effort can be recognised and appreciated (and that's great). But that's not even a a step forward towards a solution, so it's not about "what I'm after" personally.

ps: and I'm really sorry if that does sound harsh, I'm not trying to hurt feelings or be mean.
And actually may be you are right, may be you or some will find that satisfactory. There are even people who think David Guetta is the best dj ever so I know anything can happen.

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Originally Posted by Yul

ps: and I'm really sorry if that does sound harsh, I'm not trying to hurt feelings or be mean.

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then i suspect you failed both objectives with flying colors :D

there is criticism, constructive criticism and downright unhelpfull sarcastic criticism and i think you fall into the latter...

would be good to encourage new users - esp when trying out mappings etc - not try to kick them down.

tho i do agree the double exclamation marks at the end of the title was a tad over the top ;)

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Originally Posted by zestoi

then i suspect you failed both objectives with flying colors :D

there is criticism, constructive criticism and downright unhelpfull sarcastic criticism and i think you fall into the latter...

would be good to encourage new users - esp when trying out mappings etc - not try to kick them down.

tho i do agree the double exclamation marks at the end of the title was a tad over the top ;)

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The site-owner has been known to lend things from others and asks in the latest interview regarding copycats...oh the irony. It's the same with messageboarding. On the scratch-dj-forums of back in the day, you wouldn't have those tutorials which even a toad would understand. There was real pride to the craft. You got help, but only if you prooved, that you are up to learn on your own and that you had a certain skill-set. Nothing was pre-chewed like it is today. Paying your dues has been replaced by "the guy criticing me is a hater". That's why even the real DJ-scene (Turntablism which contains all relevant criterias like mixing, trickmixing, blends (mash-up is a pop-term), scratching, beatjuggling etc.) stagnated in 2006...

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Originally Posted by zykill

The site-owner has been known to lend things from others and asks in the latest interview regarding copycats...oh the irony. It's the same with messageboarding. On the scratch-dj-forums of back in the day, you wouldn't have those tutorials which even a toad would understand. There was real pride to the craft. You got help, but only if you prooved, that you are up to learn on your own and that you had a certain skill-set. Nothing was pre-chewed like it is today. Paying your dues has been replaced by "the guy criticing me is a hater". That's why even the real DJ-scene (Turntablism which contains all relevant criterias like mixing, trickmixing, blends (mash-up is a pop-term), scratching, beatjuggling etc.) stagnated in 2006...

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true the bar to entry has been lowered but thats no reason to beat down noobs.

this *is* the "real dj scene" or at least as much a part of it as turntablism.

i started out on turntables around 85 so by rights i should be trying to bash down new users too? i don't think so....

anyway - i was only trying to point out that the comments were harsh and overall unhelpful. there seems to be too much of that on this forum these days...

Hey Yul,

Maybe you could fill me in.. I've seen plenty of new users on this forum struggling with basic mappings and after watching eans last video thought i would share a mapping with anyone trying to use the jogwheels to control fx similar to the vid. This isn't supposed to be some next level shit just a bit of fun. I fail to see how this mapping is 'totaly false as it achieves nothing' as it acheives exactly what i intended it to do and it works for me in exactly the manner i described earlier. I am not sue what you are after with your comments i have no issues with how the mapping breaking down. Could you elaborate? Maybe we aren;t even on the same page?
One thing that is noted is the use of punctuation in my title if i had known it would get this type of response.

Just trying to spread some love note hate!! (opps double exclamation):)

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then i suspect you failed both objectives with flying colors

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Yes I can agree with that, I'm working on it (mwahahahaha), I even integrated positive comments (true story). I do believe when you fail at something, at least do it in large measures.
^^

Ok seriously, and I'm one of the first to help when I can, like many others. So I don't have anything to prove on that. And I'm learning much from others too.

And on the subject, within another thread I gave directions and tips, were they taken into account? No. And really it's not about ME giving tips, it could have been any other, that's not the point. So if you come, not taking into account other's people experiences on purpose and claiming you find solutions in very straighforward way, don't serve me the 'you beat down noobs', as that will really depend on the person on the other side.

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true the bar to entry has been lowered but thats no reason to beat down noobs.

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I don't make an assumption about Dabeef if he is a noob, I don't know. You're making one here actually on him. Maybe you are right and he's a noob. But whatever we all started somewhere as you stated.

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anyway - i was only trying to point out that the comments were harsh and overall unhelpful. there seems to be too much of that on this forum these days...

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Yes I've heard and I agree to an extend (the extend being, people should also stop being too sensitive when they don't hear/read they are beautiful or what they've done isn't that great). I appreciate you took the time to notice me your view on that (I'm not being cynical here).

Hopefully I'm not representative of the whole community anyway (hopefully) and/ or of the forum itself, I'm sure Dabeef is aware of that. As I said earlier I appreciated the effort he's done, and may be some will find what he offers interesting (whatever I think).

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Just trying to spread some love note hate!! (opps double exclamation)

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Yes I saw that in all your answers.

Sorry but i am still in the dark as to what you personally are trying to achieve that currently can't be done. Can you enlighten me?

A bit later and I'll make a thread with all that needs to be solved

I'll back Yul 97.83590288% of the time on whatever he does or says. He helps noobs and pros alike with extremely complex mappings. Often times I can barely wrap my head around some of his ideas, much less come up with them!!

I do think he may have come off a little harsh at the very beginning, but I think that was more a lost in translation deal and not him trying to be a jerk.

^This, he is really just trying to help on a quite complex subject. It does sound harsh but what the OP provides is nowhere near close to what he promises in the thread title. Still, I appreciate the effort. I think he was just trying to explain you that you REALLY have to know what you are doing if you plan to do this in native mode since there are lots of things that can go wrong.

I was planning to attempt this myself but I've been quite busy lately. Maybe I'll give it a shot when 2.1 is out (since the default map might be updated to incorporate some of the new features).

I can be a jerk, that is all true. I'll be honored if someone would copy that and take it as his signature so that would be a proof of a cosmic law^^



Ok, I don't want to make a full thread so l'll continue here, especially because I'm just repeating myself:

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Sorry but i am still in the dark as to what you personally are trying to achieve that currently can't be done. Can you enlighten me?

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It's not a personal thing. If you want to still use the native mapping and want to add stuff on that, there are two ways:
* either you negate or set up something in opposition to a native function (like adding a function with shift on the cue buttons, so you create antoher toggle when cue is used with shift)
* you want to add stuff to something that already exists. Depending on which controls you want to do that, here is where the harder part arrives.

That's the second point we are interested in this case as we want to use the native option for the jogwheel to control other FX(s) than the third slot or parameter.

But first before jumping into that, there are some rules to be followed: you want to produce a system that will be consistent and that cant' be disrupted. In other words if you set up any kind of modifier system it must be 'true' all the time, otherwise you're going to mess with some critical controls. In the case of the S4, you have to duplicate the behaviour from both the hardware and software and cover all that can happen.


A simple example in our case:
we use the load button for fx activation so you need a toggling modifier to represent that (from 0 to 1 and back). One modifier condition taken.
But you can still use shift + load button. That's a second modifier condition.
But there's the browse mode, because the load button still loads when in browse mode. You need to create another modifier so when in browse mode your first modifier will not touched. That's already a third modifier condition.

Other things have to be taken into account like the layer we're working with. If you switch from deck B to deck D for example, the load button/fx activation is disengaged so you have to create that for your first modifier. Likewise if you switch deck and if your deck D is a sample deck, the load button doesn't work for fx activation, so that's something you also need to preview. And if you revert back to deck B that's also something that's need to be represented, etc, etc, etc
So one of the first issue to overcome is being obliged to create all those events/modifiers, that's already several of them, within your first modifier when you have only two modifier conditions available. Even if it's a bit complex, not a big deal, there are ways to use multiple layers of modifiers inside a modifier. Of course some of those modifiers have themselves an influence upon others so also something you want to recreate right?
If you don't do that you can't trust your load button.
It's not finished...

But if you created the browse mode, you also have to duplicate the copy mode as they are using the same button but in different ways, one is a toggling modifier, the other being an hold type but with a potential sequence of a lot of different things to be pushed (holding browse button , then using a sample play button or cue button would make you enter the copy mode, but then you can stop there so it reverts back to normal...
Just this one is funky to recreate....

Ok, let's say we are quite good at solving all the above and we set up something that works. That was only the first part.
The second part is the jogwheel itself and it's own behaviour. It doesn't react the same if you're using shift, if the load button is engaged or not, if you're in browse mode, if you use a sample deck (as there's a modifier system to be set up here as you can use the jogwheel to pitch bend one or more samples), so that means, the deck layer(s), the layout, etc, etc...
That's not finished.

Both the two parts above need to be interacting with each other.





Do you see the pattern? In itself it's complex, even with some mapping skills, whatever in the end, the controller manager allowing you only two modifier conditions will stop you at a point. Even by using some advanced mapping technique.
The native mode is using an integrated coded system you just can't reproduce fully.


So a simple example in your file. You just didn't replicate the browse mode or the copy mode. So as soon as you touch this specific button the modifier you set up is wrong and next time you touch the jogwheel and/or the load button, you're going to mess with something big time. Your system just don't work, it's not a personal thing of mine to say that. It's not even working for one deck, not doing it for at least two decks shows you didn't grasp the whole problematic. Can I say that without someone telling me I'm mean or harsh? Ok , ok , I'm provoking on purpose here ^^

Now to reduce the overall complexity of all this, one can decide to say that a system can only work for a specific layout (so you don't have to cover some issues), or that you'll never change from a layer to another, or never switch to midi mode, or... So you put restrictions in places which is ok (to an extend) but even like that you'll have great difficulty to cope with some obstacles.
In all cases you need to have a reliable system, I cant' stress that enough.

You create modifiers and then you realize you need other modifiers, and others linked to that, and others, and others, and also that all those different modifiers have interactions between themselves.
Do you get a bit better now?

So unless proven wrong, for the current knowledge - and the tools - at our disposal at the time being, it's not doable to produce a system that will be true, working and reliable 100% of the time, to be used in conjunction with the native mapping.


Best options for the time being:
- I can offer a system that works only for one layout and prevents you to use the copy mode. Not good enough.
- you do a full user mapping or midi mapping , dropping the native one so you get rid of all restrictions but the ones you put yourself. But that's a shame to loose all the clever functions and great led feedback.
- we wait for NI to open a bit more the embedded mapping.
- I'm fully wrong and all the above is a pile of nonsense (which would be great f... news, honestly).

wow... i'm glad that i don't tend to mod other peoples mappings :p nice explanation of all the pitfalls tho.

i was starting to think that some of the lua code i use for my midimasher seems too complicated but i had forgotten how complicated things can get when u only have traktor's modifiers to work with.

in hindsite my comments before were kind of over the top - so apols for that. i woke up in a pretty bad mood today. that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it ;)

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in hindsite my comments before were kind of over the top - so apols for that. i woke up in a pretty bad mood today. that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it

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I certainly didn't take any personal offence, actually that was cool.


Now can we all love each other and have cookies so I can be a jerk another time. Because THAT WILL HAPPEN!!!! You're warned. WTF yes I can be a dick, especially behind a keyboard.

@zestoi I am a huge lua fan (wrote BSDInstaller using lua) and every time you mention midimasher my mouth drools. When can we play with it? :)

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Originally Posted by Yul

I certainly didn't take any personal offence, actually that was cool.


Now can we all love each other and have cookies so I can be a jerk another time. Because THAT WILL HAPPEN!!!! You're warned. WTF yes I can be a dick, especially behind a keyboard.

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cool lol :D your comments were imho more "harsh but fair" tho all in all :p

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Originally Posted by GeekGod

@zestoi I am a huge lua fan (wrote BSDInstaller using lua) and every time you mention midimasher my mouth drools. When can we play with it? :)

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you already can ;) first version was released a few days back with slicer code for traktor on an lp8 and today i released a virtual midifighter config for an lpd8.

the link is in my sig... http://www.djtechtools.com/forum/sho...e=6#post349011

there is method in my madness of trying to release it on the quiet as i didn't want just anyone trying it out who didn't at least have some grasp of virtual midi ports etc. tho that theory has so far back fired as i don't think anyone has tried it yet :p

i wanted to leave posting a new thread and making it more public once i've had some feedback that it actually runs ok on other peoples laptops etc. tested here on win7 and at least runs on my xp laptop too.

also there's zero documentation at this point :p but should be enough info in that thread...

edit: as u know about lua etc - have a look in lib/slicer.lua for the "traktor slicer" code (that needs some fixes really) and lib/midifighter.lua for the virtual midifighter code.

i'm very new to lua - so probably haven't coded it as best as it could be.

@zestoi Awesome! I can understand the 'silent' release. I am going to check it out. Midifighter should be here next week sometime (using a Maschine right now).

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Originally Posted by GeekGod

@zestoi Awesome! I can understand the 'silent' release. I am going to check it out. Midifighter should be here next week sometime (using a Maschine right now).

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midifighter and maschine? very nice... there's a learn.exe that can be used to create new device configs and the current code should work on any controller that has 4x4 pads. to get that on the lpd8 i use cc mode for the 2nd two rows of pads.

i had to bundle the cygwin dll for now - as thats how i'm developing but don't *think* i need it and can probably compile using mingw. the cygwin dll makes running it the first time take a couple of seconds too as it loads up.

Soooo, started playing with this concept a bit while using the default map and FX mode. Think we'll need at least 11 modifiers.

First, we need to cancel the natural motion of the 3º control so we can then reassign it to our pleasure. This part isn't a big problem.

Now the fun begins

1) load button left
2) jog push left
3) load button right
4) jog push right
5) play/pause per deck (so this should take 2 spaces per side)
6) deck focus left
7) deck focus right
8) browse mode

Basically for one deck:
1=0 2=0 Native tempo bend mode
1=0 2=1 Scratch
1=1 2=0 Adds tempo bend while in FX mode (I keep forgetting to jump back to regular mode to bend)
1=1 2=1 FX activates only when in FX mode and platter is pushed.

Modifier 5. The FX should only engage if the deck is playing, this allows us to cue a song normally by moving the jogwheel or push+move, otherwise we can do this only with the outer rim.

Modifiers 6 and 7, the FX only acts when certain deck is in focus (A/C - B/D).

Modifier 8, disables the behavior to use the jogs while in browse mode, again you could ignore this if you use the outer rim.

Am I missing anything?

I control C and D with my X1, so I could scratch those out, and i don't mind scrubbing and browsing with the outer rim. In my case I could somehow make it work. Even if you did map it per deck you are still limited by the 2 mods per control. S4 only map? Forget it.

Summary of the nerd talk above:

http://a-m-p.gr/media/image/large/EG...ymindblown.jpg

I don't want to think about that anymore today ^^.
But from first look it miss shift in addition, copy mode, deck type (but frankly on that, the only way to do something is to work for a specific layout but the deck types still needs to be taken into account). What else? All between themselves, that's the fun part and some additonal modifier you'll need to keep track of specific states of your load button?
Well, no, no, no, don't want to think about it anymore.

Note that it can be done in two parts, left side, right side. It's easier to work upon, and then duplicate the other side, easier to see what you do.

Have a look at his thread/file, it's a light version of what I'm using (mainly it has less fx presets and only two units where i do use 4 - could be used for 4 fx units actually) but it's quite exactly what I implemented as a system. Big hole missing, the copy mode. If you can find a way to duplicate the copy mode, could be a good solution as I (think) I covered all the rest.

http://www.djtechtools.com/forum/sho...juggle+mode+s4

There's just a bit of a read , and the mist about the fx that needs to be reselected. I know some people used it without any fuss as long as you don't use the copy mode. Well whatever at least it can be interesting to have a look at it to see how and if I covered everything with the modifier system. I even covered the switch from midi mode (as funily enough, when you're in browse mode, if you switch to midi mode, when you revert back, you're not in browse mode anymore, but because you changed the type of messages sent, your mapping, didn't get the info). Or did I cover that? I don't remember. As said I don't want to think about that again, it was quite a headache and I prefer to wait for NI to come with a more opened approach to the native mapping.

Yul thanks for the heads up i was fully aware of the issues you describe but my intention was only to supply a basic mapping for any beginers wanting to have a go at achieving something similar to the vid. With respect Ean doesn't use the browser or switch decks etc. in the vid it was intended as a one off performance.

Having said that yes in a fully functional way the mapping doesn't work i get your points. My bad, i will rethink my post titles next time. I look forward to your creation:D

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Yul thanks for the heads up i was fully aware of the issues you describe but my intention was only to supply a basic mapping for any beginers wanting to have a go at achieving something similar to the vid. With respect Ean doesn't use the browser or switch decks etc. in the vid it was intended as a one off performance.

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in the latest video, of course, he is using a S2 so unless you had a look yourself at how the s2 works, you cant' tell how it functions, what to expect as far customizing a mapping goes.
And even if I respect the intention, providing something that doesn't work is no service at all (?).

Ok I think I don't understand you. Can we agree on that?

Maybe I just haven't seen it - but didn't Ean say in his posting that he was going to provide the mapping he was using on the S2 in that YouTube vid showing how he was using the FX on the jogwheel(s)?

Wouldn't that solve the mystery? If I'm missing something, please let me know b/c I'm getting tired of looking.

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Originally Posted by Skotish

Maybe I just haven't seen it - but didn't Ean say in his posting that he was going to provide the mapping he was using on the S2 in that YouTube vid showing how he was using the FX on the jogwheel(s)?

Wouldn't that solve the mystery? If I'm missing something, please let me know b/c I'm getting tired of looking.

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not sure if he'll release it or not but there's no real mystery to what he's doing i don't think. this thread was more about how to integrate it into the existing mapping i think. i.e: not trivial so as to not break other features.

as for people asking about this S2 type mapping for other controllers it's probably easiest just to do it yourself.

if i had bought an S2 from djtt tho i would probably have expected to have got that mapping with it?

When someone comes up with a really close idea as to what the mapping really is - I would greatly appreciate knowing. :D

Thanks for sharing it man :)

I don't check out this forum much after I sold my S4.....BUT, I wanted to add.

I'm a big fan of Yul and the guy knows his shit when it comes to mappings and what can be done with the S4. Dude helped me and Bigbeatz out tons when we tried the super knob loop recorder tsi mapping.

I'd listen to his advice.