WHY do so many people here use and suggest the S2/S4??

[oliosky]

HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers, or CDJs. I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function. Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work. You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights. There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production equipment.

Not to any meaningful degree. You COULD spend an hour mapping out every function on a CDJ, and then have the screen be completely dead. Or you could plug it in with AHID and have it start working, like completely, like right away.

But you couldn't map it differently yourself using HID. Is THIS the main argument why the S series is shit?

[MrPopinjay]

> HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface

Nope, bollocks. HID has to to be mapped just like anything else. The only difference is that with CDJs and Traktor or SSL NI and Serato made the mappings for you. Traktor and SSL suck in the way that they don't support user created mappings for anything other than midi. VDJ, Mixxx, etc are superior in this regard since they support a wider range of protocols.

> I'm not currently aware of a conventional MIDI controller that doesn't have to be mapped explicitly, control by control, function by function.

Every single "Traktor Ready" controller, every single Serato Itch and Intro controller and every single Ableton Live supported controller would be good examples.
You're still not understanding the difference. HID *does not* mean plug and play. Midi *does not* mean you have to map it.

The ability to transmit other data such as text is an advantage, yes. However I don't really see why you would implement an entirely new system for all your buttons instead of just using midi + a very simple protocol for pushing some text.

[Saurus]

Thank you, Popinjay, I would have been much less civil, as he's actually trying to tell ME I don't know what I'M talking about, while spouting glaringly incorrect stuff like that.

Popinjay explained very well why you're wrong about most of that silly shit, so I'll just pick up on the other stuff.

Sure, you could load some half assed manufacturer supplied mapping, but the jogs definitely won't work.

You're literally claiming that any manufacturer that uses midi instead of HID automatically has "half-assed" mappings? You're not realizing that mapping works the same way whether it's HID or midi... It's just the protocol that varies.

You're also forgetting that MIDI is an inherently dumb protocol, and doesn't support any meaningful data transfer between devices, limiting your setup to a bunch of knob boxes with lights.

You literally just said nothing with any meaning whatsoever. "bunch of knob boxes with lights"? What does that even mean? You're STILL not getting that HID and midi are just protocols for sending data. They both send numerical data, it's just the means by which they do this.

There's a reason HID exists, and there's a reason MIDI exists, for control interface situations, HID is a much more painless solution due to it's integration abilities, whereas MIDI has universal communication ability, great for production equipment.

You're still throwing around the word "integration" in a silly way dude. HID is just a protocol, you can do all of the same-we'll call it "auto-mapping", because you're struggling with the concept- with midi. ALL of the same things can be done with midi as with HID.

[ChilledoutCharlie]

To get back to the original point of this thread and to add my 2 cents. I currently own an S4 and have had no issues with it, I even took it on a 7 hour flight to the cayman islands when I moved here, it was wrapped in clothing in my checked bag (only one aspect of build quality I know but I'm not going to discuss build quality as am not an expert).

I personally think the S4 is fine, not brilliant but not a train wreck, I get no crashing or bugs but I am using a Mac. The VCI 400 did not exist when I purchased my S4 however so my decision may have been different if I had had this option.

I am not very technical, mapping does not interest me (but as has been mentioned traktor mappings are easy to install on other controllers). I have read this entire thread (until starting to type this) and have noted that the fact the S4 and Traktor are so integrated seems to be suggested to be a bad thing. Whilst for those people saying this it may be true for me it definitely is not. I have no desire to change the way the S4 controls Traktor. I assume you are talking about mappings etc here but apologies if I am wrong.

When I purchased my S4 I had not been DJing for about 4 or 5 years. I did not have the money to afford a couple of CDJs and a mixer, and software (as I wanted to use software). I wanted to buy a controller to be able to mess around and re-kindle my passion for music. I decided on an S4 as I wanted a sound card, software and a controller all in one. As mentioned I am not very technical I could plug and play. Excellent. For me buying an S4 was a decision I made because I wanted to get back in to DJing the easiest way I possibly could.

Now... knowing what I know now would I still buy an S4? Probably not as I would like to go down a more modular route. Do I regret my decision to buy an S4? Absolutely not, it has enabled me to rekindle my passion for music and I would not have got to the position where I knew I wanted to go more modular without it.

I still think the S4 is one of the best options for people starting out who want to do it the easiest, and reasonably priced (you can save a lot of money compared to a VCI), ways they can and who are not very technical. Based on this would I recommend the S4 to someone like that, yes.

[synthet1c]

HID only has to be mapped in situations like VDJ where you're building an interface, Serato and Traktor both have plug and play solutions for HID via the S/F/X series controllers

As popinjay said, controllers send numbers to a program, the mapping part is to tell the software what to do when those numbers are received and that is done by someone whether it's you, DJTT staff, the work experience kid at the manufacturer or someone in the development team of the software you are using.

I strongly believe your beef is with the wrong people... Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.

[Saurus]

To get back to the original point of this thread and to add my 2 cents. I currently own an S4 and have had no issues with it, I even took it on a 7 hour flight to the cayman islands when I moved here, it was wrapped in clothing in my checked bag (only one aspect of build quality I know but I'm not going to discuss build quality as am not an expert).

I personally think the S4 is fine, not brilliant but not a train wreck, I get no crashing or bugs but I am using a Mac. The VCI 400 did not exist when I purchased my S4 however so my decision may have been different if I had had this option.

I am not very technical, mapping does not interest me (but as has been mentioned traktor mappings are easy to install on other controllers). I have read this entire thread (until starting to type this) and have noted that the fact the S4 and Traktor are so integrated seems to be suggested to be a bad thing. Whilst for those people saying this it may be true for me it definitely is not. I have no desire to change the way the S4 controls Traktor. I assume you are talking about mappings etc here but apologies if I am wrong.

When I purchased my S4 I had not been DJing for about 4 or 5 years. I did not have the money to afford a couple of CDJs and a mixer, and software (as I wanted to use software). I wanted to buy a controller to be able to mess around and re-kindle my passion for music. I decided on an S4 as I wanted a sound card, software and a controller all in one. As mentioned I am not very technical I could plug and play. Excellent. For me buying an S4 was a decision I made because I wanted to get back in to DJing the easiest way I possibly could.

Now... knowing what I know now would I still buy an S4? Probably not as I would like to go down a more modular route. Do I regret my decision to buy an S4? Absolutely not, it has enabled me to rekindle my passion for music and I would not have got to the position where I knew I wanted to go more modular without it.

I still think the S4 is one of the best options for people starting out who want to do it the easiest, and reasonably priced (you can save a lot of money compared to a VCI), ways they can and who are not very technical. Based on this would I recommend the S4 to someone like that, yes.

Holy shit. Thank you. Very well written and thought out post. Also, thank you for knowing it's okay to not have an about something if you don't know very much about it (regarding build quality outside of it breaking)

I understand you not having the same issues as many of us are if you have no interest in mapping. The only point I think you missed in my posts, as well as some other people's, is that the easy plug and play is JUST as easy with other controllers. Some midi controllers actually come "traktor-ready", meaning the mapping is built into the firmware, so it works even easier than the S4 (because you generally don't have to update drivers). Even the controllers that don't come "traktor ready" are just as easy to plug in and go: Most controllers come with a CD with a traktor mapping on it, and all you have to do is hit the big "import" button in the controller manager, then navigate to the file.

Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( think about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)

[Saurus]

Manufactures can't get perfect jogwheel integration because NI don't want to let them have it without paying for it. Mapping is only allowing enough functionality to shut people up If they are using unapproved hardware and probably only there currently there because of the legacy, otherwise it would be locked up faster than you can say "serato does it why shouldn't NI" especially at the ridiculous retail price it dropped to.

You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.

[scamo]

Firstly, as far as I know, the Controller Manager was always atrocious, even before NI started making hardware. It is as it was programmed for some time now.

Also, NI did say one of their next goals after the release of 2.5 is to improve the Controller Manager. Sorry I can't give you the link to where I read that, but they did say it. I am really looking forward to improvements in the Controller Manager.

As for build quality and the S4/S2 being so great or not debate. I can't really argue against the points being made, but I also can't say they are all completely right either. I can say, I have an S4 and it has its small quirks here and there, but still, it is solid enough to make me think it was worth the price I had paid for it and it does the job I want it to do well enough to leave me happy with it. That is all a product needs to do for it to be accepted by me, and I would think the same goes for any other customer and it seems many others have accepted it as "good". As I get more professional with mixing music, will it still fit my purposes? I don't know. But for sure, the S4 can do a lot, probably a lot more than most people will ever need or want and one of the great pluses it has to me is it opens up a world of creativity that wasn't there in other controllers for Traktor and that is why I bought one too. So overall, I'd say the S4 is recommendable, but everyone still needs to weigh in their preferences for a controller and choose the one that fits them best.

scamo

[ksandvik]

You just summed up Trakor much better than I ever could. You're completely right. If Traktor had come out right now, midi mapping would NOT be an option. They'd probably have an even more locked version of Itch's business plan. This is why we'll likely never see an update to the (i can't emphasize this enough) ATROCIOUS controller manager... Because they don't want us to midi map things, they want us to buy their hardware. This is because they apparently couldn't figure out how to make enough profits from software, like VDJ or Ableton do, so they are trying to squeeze money out of hardware, despite being a software company.

Hmm, that (successful) business model sounds very familiar....

[ksandvik]

Because of how easy this is once you understand this fact, I assert that even a beginner with no knowledge or interest in mapping, would still be much better-served with a higher-quality controller. Not even just because they might want to get into mapping later one, but because of the build quality, the reliability (I understand if you've never had an issue on a mac, but for ~%80 of us PC users, every single update to traktor breaks the S4), and even just the functionality. Those two notched push loop knobs, for example... Those could have just been six buttons, and most people would have liked them better, especially for beatjumping ( think about how often you accidentally turn the knob to hard and jump twice)

?? You complain about PC stating that it's fine with Macs and blame it on S4. Anyway, I'm out of this discussion, it's getting into bizarro-logic-land.