pirated music

[fullenglishpint]

Pretty sure anything you buy from iTunes can not be played commercially.

that answers that one then

[Bunford]

That actually brings up a valid question...

Just how DO you keep track of the proof of ownership for hundreds or thousands of tracks? print all the emails?

It's an interesting question. It'd be impractical to expect someone to priont out every email for every song they've ever bought and then keep them forever.

And what if you haven't printed them off and your computer crashes and you have to do a re-install meaning you lose all your e-mails, for example?

Or, you change ISP and then you're email account gets shut down/blocked due to end of subscription to ISP.

Or, what if you have a secondary "DJ" account with places like Amazon, Beatport etc. Strictly, and legally, speaking, 'you' would not have any proof of any purchase, just your DJ alter ego who, in the eyes of the law, is not you and doesn't really exist.

Numerous things can make it very easy to lose any evidence that you have actually bought tracks.

Whereas I believe that everyone should purchase their music and support the industry (especially now more than a few years ago when the industry was greedy and clearly ripping consumers off with over-priced music, whereas now they seem to have realised their greedy nature was shooting themselves in the foot and prices have dropped hugely (in the UK at least)), I do think that this is very murky territory and would be very difficult for any legal system to make anything stick.

Would also depend on whether they'd pursue it via civil or criminal courts (in the UK at least). One based on what 'likely' happened, and the other having to prove beyond any reasonable doubt.

[Bunford]

to the best of my knowledge, in most countries purchasing music now grants you a license to move it to 1 other format. so if you buy a cd you can rip an mp3 and vice versa if its for PERSONAL use.

This made me think. As I understand, even if you purchase an album/song, it is only for your own personal use and not to be used at public events or for commercial reasons/profit.

Kind of like when you buy a film and it has the copyright spiel at the start about not legal for public performances etc without consent of the record company/artist (which is highly unreasonable for every World DJ to request permission for every track ever).

Therefore, even if you have proof you bought it, isn't it still actually illegal to play it in a public performance/for profit (if you're being paid to DJ)?

Just throwing it out there...

[Bunford]

no proof of purchase, no grounds for your case im afraid.

in the eyes of everyone reviewing your situation, you're essentially a pirate. an 'honest' word by the defendant, without any proof - won't hold up in court mate.

Maybe not, but I still think this is a huge flaw in the system.

Personally, I often sell on CDs that I don't use/listen to any more purely because I do not have the room for them. However, most (apart from the absolute drivel) will be on my iTunes and/or 160gb iPod. I also love this about music as I regularly pick up ol dlcassics from charity shops, second hand stores for 50p (less than $1). I may buy them for one song. I rip the album onto iTunes and then recycle the CD back into the charity shops/second hand stores for someone else to ge it. Legally, I've bought it and used up my legal "one other format" and done well for the environment/music industry by recycling the item into the consumer system.

According to what you noted earlier, you're legally allowed it in one other format. Therefore, if I buy the CD legally, put on my iTunes, few months later sell the CD and therefore have no proof of purchase, how can they say on the one hand it's legal to have it in one other format but then claim that you've broken the law?

Seems like a very flawed system to me.

[oneapemob]

Yes basically, if you want to use this legally bought music for any other thing than just playing it for you and your family ( not even your friends ), then you have to pay a licence to the official legal department of your country, and then depending on the country you live in, pay a per performance fee ( that supposedly then goes to the artists/labels/state).
So having legal music is one thing, then you have to have the rights to play it, minus if stated when you buy that music ( in some pro online shops im pretty sure they give you the rights to play it to a crowd ), or if the club you play at has a licence covering every performer, but you'd still have to pay taxes/licence to receive money for the djing act itself.

[oneapemob]

Maybe not, but I still think this is a huge flaw in the system.

Personally, I often sell on CDs that I don't use/listen to any more purely because I do not have the room for them. However, most (apart from the absolute drivel) will be on my iTunes and/or 160gb iPod. I also love this about music as I regularly pick up ol dlcassics from charity shops, second hand stores for 50p (less than $1). I may buy them for one song. I rip the album onto iTunes and then recycle the CD back into the charity shops/second hand stores for someone else to ge it. Legally, I've bought it and used up my legal "one other format" and done well for the environment/music industry by recycling the item into the consumer system.

According to what you noted earlier, you're legally allowed it in one other format. Therefore, if I buy the CD legally, put on my iTunes, few months later sell the CD and therefore have no proof of purchase, how can they say on the one hand it's legal to have it in one other format but then claim that you've broken the law?

Seems like a very flawed system to me.

Basically when you resell the cd you lose the rights to have that digital copy, because this digital copy is supposedly bound to the hardcopy you bought.
Hell some major companies would want to make resell completly illegal, because if you push the logic, you could buy a cd between "pirates" ( i.e. friends ), everyone copies it to his hard drive ( lets say a group of 20 friends ) and then just claim you "sold" the cd to your friends, but kept a copy because, hey at one point you paid for it.
All this doesn't stand a ground for labels, because if you re-sell your copy, then the money doesn't directly go to them ( and that is what matter to them), they make no money from those second hand stores...

[josh@firestorm]

Basically when you resell the cd you lose the rights to have that digital copy, because this digital copy is supposedly bound to the hardcopy you bought.

exactly.. the 'into one other format' requires the original file whether it be cd or wav/mp3 etc to be in your legal possession for it to be legally binding.

Hell some major companies would want to make resell completly illegal, because if you push the logic, you could buy a cd between "pirates" ( i.e. friends ), everyone copies it to his hard drive ( lets say a group of 20 friends ) and then just claim you "sold" the cd to your friends, but kept a copy because, hey at one point you paid for it.

well EA introduced a system last year for games that if you sold your copy of game 'X' the person that bought it would have to pay for a new license key to be able to use it online (assuming you had previously played it online). That way they make back some profit on a second hand sale. its a little harder, near impossible to implement that system with music. especially nowadays with the reduction of physical media for music distribution.

its not to say hollywood wont develop a similar system for the resale of blu-ray in the future.

All this doesn't stand a ground for labels, because if you re-sell your copy, then the money doesn't directly go to them ( and that is what matter to them), they make no money from those second hand stores...

i was having this argument with a mate about 10-12 years ago. he refused to download mp3's as the artists were making no money, but he'd only buy second hand cd's (and artists weren't making any money off that either). his argument was that "it had made money once so it was ok".. and my argument was that "a cd was sold once too - to the bloke that ripped and encoded it."

and he retorted "what if they were promo's and no money was made?" and my response to that was, "what about all the 'not for sale, promo only' stickers on his 'secondhand cds'"

[josh@firestorm]

It's an interesting question. It'd be impractical to expect someone to priont out every email for every song they've ever bought and then keep them forever.

And what if you haven't printed them off and your computer crashes and you have to do a re-install meaning you lose all your e-mails, for example?

Or, you change ISP and then you're email account gets shut down/blocked due to end of subscription to ISP.

Or, what if you have a secondary "DJ" account with places like Amazon, Beatport etc. Strictly, and legally, speaking, 'you' would not have any proof of any purchase, just your DJ alter ego who, in the eyes of the law, is not you and doesn't really exist.

Numerous things can make it very easy to lose any evidence that you have actually bought tracks.

Whereas I believe that everyone should purchase their music and support the industry (especially now more than a few years ago when the industry was greedy and clearly ripping consumers off with over-priced music, whereas now they seem to have realised their greedy nature was shooting themselves in the foot and prices have dropped hugely (in the UK at least)), I do think that this is very murky territory and would be very difficult for any legal system to make anything stick.

Would also depend on whether they'd pursue it via civil or criminal courts (in the UK at least). One based on what 'likely' happened, and the other having to prove beyond any reasonable doubt.

its your responsibility to keep a record of your purchases. besides, if you are a registered business (you have to be to DJ here in AUS for example, or you wont get paid by a lot of places), you can claim all your music purchases as a business expense for running your business as a tax offset... so why wouldn't you keep them?

the investigators couldn't give 2 shits if you've changed ISP's or your hotmail got hacked or you had a virus etc. no evidence. bad luck!

as for the DJ alter-ego comment.. did you not read my comment of investigators being active on forums, and trawling social media? all the sites you visit log your IP address also, and most vpn's etc can eventually be traced back to your original IP too.

the likely hood of getting stung in the first place is pretty slim. so until you see smoke there's probably no fire, but i'd rather be ready incase the fire started.

[Karlos Santos]

Yes basically, if you want to use this legally bought music for any other thing than just playing it for you and your family ( not even your friends ), then you have to pay a licence to the official legal department of your country, and then depending on the country you live in, pay a per performance fee ( that supposedly then goes to the artists/labels/state).
So having legal music is one thing, then you have to have the rights to play it, minus if stated when you buy that music ( in some pro online shops im pretty sure they give you the rights to play it to a crowd ), or if the club you play at has a licence covering every performer, but you'd still have to pay taxes/licence to receive money for the djing act itself.

In the UK its called a PRODUB licence and is bought from the PRS (performance rights society).
The licence allows you to play MP3s and is charged by the number of mp3s you own.

Without this licence you are not legally allowed to play MP3s as a DJ.

[josh@firestorm]

Over here (Again, in Denmark), we have a system called CODA.
It's pretty clever, but pretty broken too.
Whenever an artists music receives airplay, gets played in a club, radio station or whatever, a small percentage of the income must be payed to the artist.

similar 'flawed' system here in Aus too.. and i think the UK do too?

don't dj's in the UK have to buy their own license to play music in bars/clubs on top of buying their own music? im sure i remember reading they have to pay x amount per year if they play vinyl/cds and a seperate, higher amount if they play from laptop?

here in australia the venue's pay x amount per person for whatever they are licensed to hold.. eg say 20c x 1800ppl capacity. im pretty sure you have to pay the the maximum capacity amount regardless if you have 10 ppl in the club or a full 1800 for example.

EDIT: just read karlos' post above